How was Pete Dye ever successful as an architect?

[Ira Fishman]

I have played only three of Mr.Dye's courses: River and Meadow at Kohler and River at Kingsmills. They all range from very good to great. The only reason River at Kohler is not in my top 10 is that I fell in love with Links and Heathland golf. It is very challenging, but a wonderful set of holes that use the river and topography to create variety. It also is quite scenic.


The Golf Club is definitely on my bucket list.


Ira

[Mark Smolens]

The "new" inner 9 holes on the River Course, especially in the fall when the leaves are turning, could easily be my favorite 9 holes on any course I've played. That walk up the hill to the 5th tee is one of the best walks in golf. His courses are certainly difficult, but I don't think I've ever played one that I didn't find memorable or one where I didn't enjoy the challenge he created. . .

[Ira Fishman]

The "new" inner 9 holes on the River Course, especially in the fall when the leaves are turning, could easily be my favorite 9 holes on any course I've played. That walk up the hill to the 5th tee is one of the best walks in golf. His courses are certainly difficult, but I don't think I've ever played one that I didn't find memorable or one where I didn't enjoy the challenge he created. . .

Number 5 at River at Kohler is one of best holes I have had the privilege of playing.


Ira

[Mike Schott]

Just because Dye built what he thought was good doesn't make it so. I eventually grew to respect his courses because I'm from Indiana and he was one of our very few heroes. What I don't understand is how that was enough for him to get hired time and time again to build courses that no one really loves to play. It almost leads me to believe that this explains the success of many of his students. You get the core of the Dye philosophy without the God awful execution.
[/quote


What evidence have you that no one loves to play his courses? It seems like you think his most difficult designs like PGA West are representative of all of his work. That's simply not fair. I've only played two of his courses, Radrick Farms and Brickyard Crossing and recall enjoying my time on both.

[John Kavanaugh]

Loves to play is an interesting standard. What evidence could anyone have? Every time I try to hold a vote at the Pete Dye Golf Society we can't get a quorum.

[Niall C]

Never having knowingly played a Pete Dye course I'm just an interested onlooker to this discussion, but picking up the thread of the OP, have many of his courses been altered significantly by someone else after he left ?


If not, is that because they are popular and successful (possibly not if this thread is anything to judge by) or is it because his style was such that it would have been hard to alter his courses without doing a complete make-over ?


Niall

[Tim Martin]

Just because Dye built what he thought was good doesn't make it so. I eventually grew to respect his courses because I'm from Indiana and he was one of our very few heroes. What I don't understand is how that was enough for him to get hired time and time again to build courses that no one really loves to play. It almost leads me to believe that this explains the success of many of his students. You get the core of the Dye philosophy without the God awful execution.

Kav-I’ll be devils advocate and say Kiawah Ocean is a course that many love to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike Vegis made Kiawah. My love for him requires my recusal on that subject.

[Jeff Schley]

I like Pete Dye as an architect for he took on difficult sites and put his difficult touches onto them, which I respect.  How many architects would have even taken on projects like Austin Country Club, much less make it what is on a very tough site. He had to have done over 100 courses easily, then add in ones his family helped with certainly this is a large number.
One area, and some can correct me if I am wrong, I don't recall him doing any restorations of other golden age courses.  He did mostly his own courses or redesigns here and there.  Did he do any restorations?

[Kalen Braley]

Like Tom D pointed out previously, he became the king of making the most from tough sites, and if I had to guess was fairly well compensated for that, but I could be wrong. I'm guessing Pete had no regrets in that respect, even if hindsight reveals not being offered higher profile, more ideal sites.

I would compare him to the grizzled vet that every tech company needs.  The guy whose been building stuff since before some of the younger guys were even born.  Crafty, Seen-it-all/done-it-all, mentor types with little interest in the Manager/Director path, who instead wish to remain in the trenches and impart their wisdom hands on.  I've worked with a couple of these guys and owe them my career.

[Tom_Doak]

One area, and some can correct me if I am wrong, I don't recall him doing any restorations of other golden age courses.  He did mostly his own courses or redesigns here and there.  Did he do any restorations?

Pete did not believe in restoration.  He thought golf had changed too much for that.


However, when contacted by the one course he did think should be restored - The Camargo Club - he sent a 23-year-old to help them.  And I'm still their consultant, 36 years later!

[David_Tepper]

NY Times article on Pete & Alice Dye and how many of their courses were part of real estate developments:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/realestate/pete-alice-dye-golf-course-designs.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Pete was the anti-Jones.  He took chances and his courses were very different from others being built.  He also knew what he was doing even when he was winging it in the field.  He studied great courses abroad and that added to his design philosophies. In some ways he was like C&C with Sand Hills.  He departed from the norm! 
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Regarding Colleton River; Pete never worried about his courses blending in!  He didn’t find golf holes/courses, he built them 

[David Davis]

I'd say a lot had to do with timing. He was an outlier in the dark ages. He capitalized on the the fear of Pros and his courses became famous on tv with all the hype that came from the PGA Tour and the retail golfers fascination with seeing the pros struggle. In a time where penal architecture ruled he became the king of delivering exactly what was wanted by developers as had already been mentioned on difficult sites.


I've only played a handful of his well known courses:


Kohler courses, Sawgrass, Harbour Town, Kiawah Island, Loblolly, Casa de Campo courses and The Golf Club.


All were at least very good, all are tough even though not my personal favorites. However, I'd play pretty much any of them over the courses from the other "top" architects from that time.

[Matt Kardash]

He built a bunch of Doak 6, 7 and 8s on sites that were 0's. I think that says a lot. It made life for a developer pretty easy. All that a developer had to do was buy any flat swamp, give it to Dye and he would create a very good golf course, houses would be sold and money would be made.
The Mike Keiser concept of "build it and they will come" was born basically at the end of Dye's career.

Financially, the 80s and 90s were a good time for Dye to be a designer, but creatively it is a much better time now, as the site's chosen are vastly superior.

[Jason Thurman]

The first "Dye" (Pete and PB co-design) I ever played was Kearney Hill. At the time, it might've been the hardest course I'd ever played. And it probably was my favorite I had played too. Even though I wasn't nearly good enough to play it, it was a course I always got excited to play. But it was too stern to be beloved the way people fawn over places like Mid Pines. And hell, it's probably the easiest Dye I've played...


I don't know what brings me back to Pete Dye courses. They aren't "fun," really. But I remember in Bury me in a Pot Bunker something to the effect of how a really hard shot doesn't necessarily punish a hacker - they're already used to failing a lot on even the simplest shots, and they might just pull off a shot they remember forever. The man got a ton of credit for understanding how good players think, but but nearly enough for understanding how bad players think. I'm a hack who can remember an awful lot of shots I've hit on Dye courses.


John, you might just not be a shitty enough golfer to appreciate him.

[David_Tepper]

"The Best Pete Dye Courses You Can Play"

https://www.linksmagazine.com/best-of-pete-dye-public-golf-courses/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=insider03.09.20

[Thomas Dai]

Out of curiosity how similar are courses done by Pete himself to those done by other members of his family?
Atb