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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
This thread is not about what's wrong with any aspect of planning systems, environmental restrictions, appeal processes, local, regional and national government powers etc etc. We can pontificate and argue about these aspects until the proverbial cows come home but lets not go there.


This thread is instead aimed at what lessons potential developers ought to have been learnt from the various successful and unsuccessful new golf developments in the UK over the last couple of decades.


If someone wanted to start the process for a new development today what would you suggest are the key aspects they should learn and take into consideration from the likes of the Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Machrihanish Dunes, Dundonald, Trump-Balmedie, Dumbarnie, Ardfin, Coul etc etc developments.


Thoughts?


atb

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think the primary lesson is you are better off creating a "faux" links (such as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart) than try to build in natural linksland.


Can anyone state whether Dumbarnie is a natural or "manufactured" links?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 08:31:13 PM by David_Tepper »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
I think the primary lesson is you are better off creating a "faux" links (such as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart) than try to build in natural linksland.


Can anyone state whether Dumbarnie is a natural or "manufactured" links?


Better off, as in it's easier to get permits, or overall?  Creating a faux links costs a fair bit more in terms of construction, and not all have received the same critical success as the two you named.  [I don't know if both of them have been successful financially.]

Peter Pallotta

The lesson? Set your sights lower.
Ally wrote on the Coul Links thread:
"If they pulled the course west (completely) off the SSSI then it would have absolutely made a difference. The trouble is you have a weaker course and in the end, it’s really difficult to accept that for most developers and architects."
My 'practical' response is: "well, learn to accept it and do the very best you can with what you have".
My 'cynical' (or is it 'realistic') response is: "not one in a hundred retail golfers would've known the difference, or would've cared in any event. You have Keiser and C&C, in Scotland! With them, there, a flat as a pancake 7 would be a 9 in a heartbeat -- the very epitome of minimalism, the very height of subtlety, the very textbook on playability on a windy site, a veritable homage to the Old Course".
PS
On the Pete Dye thread, Matt praised him for creating a lot of 6s & 7s on 0 sites; doesn't seem too much to ask for someone to try for an 8 or 9 on a 3/4 site. Maybe Mr K's past success has created an aura (and expectation and need for) 'guaranteed and enormous success, every time out'. But surely his track record so far is a historical anomaly, not the norm. Maybe it's time to come back to earth a little -- 'merely' very good courses and 'only' quite profitable investments.
Goodness gracious, we've become truly a greedy lot, all of us in the west -- never ever enough money, or acclaim, or social media/profile or political & cultural influence or '10' golf courses to play etc.
 

 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 09:25:24 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think the primary lesson is you are better off creating a "faux" links (such as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart) than try to build in natural linksland.


Can anyone state whether Dumbarnie is a natural or "manufactured" links?


Dumbarnie is emphatically a shaped, not found, golf course. It is _next_ to a SSSI of natural dunes, but it doesn’t go into it
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
If building new courses on genuine linksland isn’t going to be possible, what are the best examples of “missed opportunities” out there that could be redeveloped?  What’s the least good course on the best piece of linksland in GB&I?


I ask the question purely as a theoretical exercise, recognising that there’s all sorts of practical reasons why this might not be possible.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think the primary lesson is you are better off creating a "faux" links (such as Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart) than try to build in natural linksland.


Can anyone state whether Dumbarnie is a natural or "manufactured" links?


Dumbarnie is emphatically a shaped, not found, golf course. It is _next_ to a SSSI of natural dunes, but it doesn’t go into it


Absolutely but that's not to say it isn't links. Turnberry, Muirfield, much of Prestwick, North Berwick, Troon, Dundonald, Western Gailes, Glasgow Gailes, Carnoustie, Mach Dunes etc were built on similar land which is to say links land that had been used as farmland ie. grazing and in some instances had been at least in part cultivated.


And in all of those courses there has been a fair bit of dirt shifted over the years. The difference with Dumbarnie (from what I've seen in pictures and read) is that they have endeavoured to create a landscape a la Kingsbarns whereas the older courses a lot of the ground work, at least initially, was restricted to features such as tees, greens and bunkers.


All those courses show that you don't need pristine links to create a wonderful course, and the likes of Kingsbarns shows you don't even need to retain much of the existing landform to do so either.


To answer David's OP, going forward I would hope the lesson of Embo is to respect and work with the planning system in much the same way that Dumbarnie and Mach Dunes did. That way they save everyone a lot of grief and don't tarnish the reputation of the game in this country.


From a financial point of view, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart present interesting case studies but I'm not sure of the conclusions as I've never been party to the business plan or financials. I'd assume however that being in relative proximity to another big course is part of the plan. Interestingly neither of these two examples are on links. In the case of the bottom part of KB, it was links but they then compromised that by mixing the links soil with the heavier soil above in order to get consistency across the entire site.


Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks to those who have responded for your positive thoughts.
Curious that, for example, we have 42 pages of comments on the Coul project and probably a zillion comments about Trump Balmedie yet only 6 thoughts on lessons learnt from these and other such recent developments.
Maybe others are keeping their thoughts craftily confidential in order not to give any possible competitor developers or opposition groups their ideas? Maybe not?
:)
Atb

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas I'll take the bait on that.  It's tough for me to put myself in the position of a fellow with that sort of money and inclination, but if I were, then I suppose the lesson that I would take away would be that I should look elsewhere than UK if I wanted to develop a Coul-like project.  Approval outcome too random and seemingly divorced from the merits. 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Would be developers wanting the next great links course should look to existing ones that need a big big help...I have a list if any developer wants, including 2 that could stage the OPEN GOLF CHAMPIONSHIP!!!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Thomas I'll take the bait on that.  It's tough for me to put myself in the position of a fellow with that sort of money and inclination, but if I were, then I suppose the lesson that I would take away would be that I should look elsewhere than UK if I wanted to develop a Coul-like project.  Approval outcome too random and seemingly divorced from the merits.


Bernie:


There's more chance of it in the UK than in the EU, where pretty much all of the undeveloped dunes systems have a bright red line drawn around them.  Mike Keiser looked at two different projects in Ireland before Coul, but never spent much money on them because everyone assured him the permits were a no-go.


The lesson, as Adrian says, is that we will increasingly look to existing courses that could be renovated and improved, as I am doing right now at St. Patrick's.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

Your comments beg the question of what advice Mike Keiser received on Embo on his chances of getting planning permission. I wonder if he'd have given it a go if it weren't for Balmedie.

Bernie

I think you'll find there are opportunities out there in the UK that aren't contentious. The trick is to respect the planning guidance and not try and ride roughshod over it.

Niall

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Niall, even assuming such non-contentious opportunities for new coastal development abound (about which I know nothing but am skeptical), I still think the lesson investors, especially foreign ones, will take away from Coul is to stay away.  Maybe that's for the best, it's not for me to say.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Tom,

Your comments beg the question of what advice Mike Keiser received on Embo on his chances of getting planning permission. I wonder if he'd have given it a go if it weren't for Balmedie.



Niall:


The planning process is just much different in America.  As I mentioned in the other thread, outside of National Parks and state parks and land donated to The Nature Conservancy, there is nothing here comparable to an SSSI designation.  There are many environmental laws protecting wetlands, endangered species, etc., but private property has not been specifically designated for conservation . . . each development proposal is considered case by case by a horde of different interest groups, but there is no presumption of success or failure based on something like SSSI.


I'd guess Mr. Keiser would not have pursued this as hard as he did had Trump not been successful in recent years, but as you've indicated, the politics have changed a lot since then, and even since the original application was filed.


And there are always lawyers and engineers willing to try and help with permits, though I don't think they would be so keen if you proposed they only be paid if the proposal is successful.   ;)

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lesson, as Adrian says, is that we will increasingly look to existing courses that could be renovated and improved, as I am doing right now at St. Patrick's.


Well said Tom and Adrian too. Now perhaps we’re getting somewhere.


In addition, would success be more likely if the voices heading or fronting any such project, particularly those dealing with the planning and environmental authorities, local residents, local government, the media etc etc are those of indigenous folks with local accents (even if much or all of the technical advice and even money comes from overseas)?


As a slight aside, particularly for a project on a new site could a partnership project, maybe even a joint venture, with environmentalist organisations work ... very sensitive routing, one man and a mower type construction, no irrigation, grazed by sheep and cattle, walking tracks, bird watching hides, environmental representation on committees etc etc? Pie in the sky or a possibility?


Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1

As a slight aside, particularly for a project on a new site could a partnership project, maybe even a joint venture, with environmentalist organisations work ... very sensitive routing, one man and a mower type construction, no irrigation, grazed by sheep and cattle, walking tracks, bird watching hides, environmental representation on committees etc etc? Pie in the sky or a possibility?





That sounds much like Machrihanish Dunes, which has been widely praised here for its light-footprint approach, or Askernish which was even lower-impact.


The problem is, has Machrihanish Dunes really been successful?  Is it attracting enough visitors to succeed commercially?  If not, and working that sensitively leads to a less appealing golf course which doesn't gain traction, then would it not have been better to just say no to begin with, than to promote that as a brilliant solution?




The idea that we ought to go back to "one man and a mower" seems like an overreaction.  A lot of modern construction equipment has a very light footprint, so you can tiptoe around the site and make surgical changes to build features where necessary, without tearing up the whole place.  I just don't see that digging a few bunkers or shaping a few features mechanically is equivalent to raping the landscape.  Are there places where we shouldn't build at all?  Okay, then name them.  But don't restrict all "sensitive" sites to arbitrary limits on construction.


As an example, for my current project in New Zealand, there are a bunch of lines drawn in the sand on where we can or can't build.  None of them make any sense to me, from a purely environmentalist standpoint.  They have moved back and forth as the product of negotiation, and they are not based on features of the property -- there is no difference in the ground one side of the line vs. the other.  I understand that they don't want us working right up to the beach, but compromising at 120 meters back [after arguing between 100 and 150] is political, not ecological.  I'm trying to work with the landforms that are there, but the authorities are ignoring them.




As to "no irrigation", we have wrestled with that at St. Patrick's.  We won't need much once the course is grown in, but to not have it at all would risk a couple of years of false starts at grow-in, which is hard to justify to the people who have invested.  In the end, we're putting it in places where we need it for grow-in, with the expectation that we'll largely turn it off [except around greens and tees] once the course is open. 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
You certainly have more chance to build on a UK SSSI than you do on an EU SAC.


Planning on the latter (in Ireland) necessitates that the local county council contact the National Parks & Wildlife who are duty bound to reject the proposal or defer it to the EU in Brussels - good luck getting through that legislation.


Tom had the great fortune to get the closest thing to virgin linksland that was open to development, primarily because it was already designated for golf and I assume was not categorised as an SAC or SPA?


Only other successes that have happened recently in Ireland have come from either clubs or county councils that have skirted a fine line...

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Once a site get designated an SSSI in the UK, are these sites reviewed periodically to determine if they still merit that classification? Have there been instances where a SSSI loses that designation due to a change in the habit over time? 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
You certainly have more chance to build on a UK SSSI than you do on an EU SAC.


Planning on the latter (in Ireland) necessitates that the local county council contact the National Parks & Wildlife who are duty bound to reject the proposal or defer it to the EU in Brussels - good luck getting through that legislation.


Tom had the great fortune to get the closest thing to virgin linksland that was open to development, primarily because it was already designated for golf and I assume was not categorised as an SAC or SPA?



Yes the SAC line was drawn right around the property fences for St. Patrick's!  It's too bad we couldn't have gone in nearer the blowouts on the inland boundary of the course, but they aren't part of the original property so they are SAC.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Once a site get designated an SSSI in the UK, are these sites reviewed periodically to determine if they still merit that classification? Have there been instances where a SSSI loses that designation due to a change in the habit over time?


The SSSI at Balmedie was de-listed as a result of the development of the golf course.


Someone told me recently that most of the coastal sites in the UK have been reviewed in the past 3-4 years, so that their designations are clear.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The SSSI at Balmedie was de-listed as a result of the development of the golf course."

I was thinking more in terms of the habit changing over time due to natural causes - winds, tides, shifting sands, encroachment from outside vegetation, etc.


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks for the extensive reply Tom.
I’m sure you realise I was throwing a couple of (half-baked?) thoughts out there particularly as the commercial element to a development is going to be pretty key. Your point about light footprint machine work is understood .. my somewhat tongue in cheek “one man with a mower” point came from a comment a member of Ballyliffin said to me about the creation of the Old course there versus the newer one. As to irrigation I was actually thinking of Rosapenna, where I recall there were no “heads” on one of the courses, just manholes and hoses. With regard to partnering with environmental types Machrihanish Dunes was the course I had in mind although I’m not aware of its commercial success, although it’s been there a good few years now. I do have a tongue in cheek vision however, of different environment folks arguing/procrastinating over different aspects of environmental issues .... “you can’t release sea-eagles near the site, they’ll kill and eat the lambs that the sheep that graze the golf course will give birth too etc etc. :)
Atb

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
The lesson for foreign investors: if your project depends on clear, stable property rights that are enforced as a matter of custom and law, take your capital and energy elsewhere.  Life is too short to mess with the politicians and there remain many places thankful to have outside money vote with confidence in the future of those societies.   

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Something that might be worth considering:


In the US, you have 10 times more land per head of population in GB.


Not sure if that goes part way to explaining a less strict land planning procedure? I bet it goes part way to giving a different perception.


You just do things BIGGER in the States.




Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
In the US, you have 10 times more land per head of population in GB.


We have 10 times what they have ....
But we have regulations that are very similar to yours.


America varies from State to State on level of regulations.
I find Upper New York State closer to Canada than anywhere else.



"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas