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Tommy Williamsen

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Proportionality and green size
« on: March 25, 2020, 12:14:10 PM »
General wisdom from most golfers is that length should be one of the determining factors in the size of the greens: the longer the hole the larger the green, the shorter the hole the smaller the green. Yet this isn’t the always case. Three poster children for long holes and small greens are the Road Hole and holes 8&9 at Pebble. Most of the iconic short holes have smallish greens: 10 at Riviera and 9 at Cypress Point. But CP also has a relatively large green for the short one shot 15th.  Doak and C&C tend to have relatively large but undulating greens for all length holes but on shortish holes the green is divided into sections. Miss the section and three putts are likely. Some courses, like Inverness, have several long holes and small greens.
What say ye, what is the place of green-size and length?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 03:12:10 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 01:38:22 PM »
The greatest courses all have variety and are not formulaic. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 01:58:54 PM »
The greatest courses all have variety and are not formulaic.


Bingo
Nice to see the odd large green on a short hole. I've always found it HARDER to get closer to the hole on a large green as the distance from hazards make judgement/definition of depth perception difficult.
And long holes with small greens are an interesting test_one seldom sees anymore unless a converted par 5...


When you think about it, short holes need large greens for ballmark relief as nearly everyone has an opportunity to make a ballmark, and small greens would be best on longer holes as more runup approaches or missed green entirely  would be the norm
Along these lines-
The longest par 4 at my course growing up had the smallest green and it was elevated
When it was "restored "it was enlarged and miraculously lowered .
So now what was once a driver 3-4 iron to a tabletop elevated green(open in front) is a driver short iron to an enlarged, lowered green...zzzzz
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 02:39:37 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 02:27:00 PM »
Design desirability is one thing, ongoing maintenance another. Hopefully there is an appropriate overlap.
Maintenance budget, degree of firmness, grass types, how many folks are going to be playing, variability of pin positions and the like would all seem important considerations.
atb

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 02:36:18 PM »
15 at Kingsley Club is the poster child for a brilliantly unfair small green on a long par four hole.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 02:36:25 PM »
Wind.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2020, 02:46:37 PM »
jeffwarne wrote: "The longest par 4 at my course growing up had the smallest green and it was elevated[/size]When it was "restored "it was enlarged and miraculously lowered."Topdressing?   ;)[/color]
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 04:21:27 PM »
jeffwarne wrote: "The longest par 4 at my course growing up had the smallest green and it was elevatedWhen it was "restored "it was enlarged and miraculously lowered."Topdressing?   ;)


Do you think that the changes were made because members complained that hole was "unfair?" I think most members think long hole--big accessible green.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 05:12:02 PM »
General wisdom from most golfers is that length should be one of the determining factors in the size of the greens: the longer the hole the larger the green, the shorter the hole the smaller the green. Yet this isn’t the always case. Three poster children for long holes and small greens are the Road Hole and holes 8&9 at Pebble.

Doak and C&C tend to have relatively large but undulating greens for all length holes but on shortish holes the green is divided into sections.


General wisdom is dangerous.


Many of the long two-shot holes I most admired in my year in GB & I had very narrow and difficult greens -- the Road hole, the Sea Headrig at Prestwick, the 9th at Ballybunion, the 16th at Deal.  I suspect this is because they were built in the days of Bogey when it was expected they would be reached with a short third shot -- or in some cases, before there were any expectations at all!


I certainly tried to keep that in mind when building my early courses.  One of the toughest holes at High Pointe was the 450-yard 3rd, with a tiny crowned green.  Black Forest has the par-4 2nd.  The 18th at Stonewall is no bigger than any of the other greens.  The 7th at Pacific Dunes is one of the most difficult greens there, at the end of a long par-4.  Etc.  I think your generalizations of my work are missing the examples to the contrary. 


We do sometimes have to build fairly large greens throughout a course because we expect to have a lot of play, and if so, we tend to divide them into sections, for shortish approaches and sometimes for longer ones, too.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 05:28:58 PM »
"We do sometimes have to build fairly large greens throughout a course because we expect to have a lot of play, and if so, we tend to divide them into sections, for shortish approaches and sometimes for longer ones, too."

Took me many years (and more skill) before I realized that a large green can play small, via its tiered/sectional design. I needed to be trying to shoot my best possible score on every hole, and my best 'possible' score needed to be trending towards par instead of bogey, before I started seeing this. 

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 06:00:13 PM »
Elie Numbers 9 through 13 are a case study in the irrelevancy of conventional wisdom.


Ira

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green. size
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2020, 07:23:42 PM »
jeffwarne wrote: "The longest par 4 at my course growing up had the smallest green and it was elevatedWhen it was "restored "it was enlarged and miraculously lowered."Topdressing?   ;)


Do you think that the changes were made because members complained that hole was "unfair?" I think most members think long hole--big accessible green.


Wasn't around when it was done.
Those cocktail napkins the old dead guys used are sometimes hard to read...
but I'd suspect yes, the F word was involved
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2020, 09:03:59 PM »
 8)




A par five often has the smallest green on the course and it makes sense. So distance isn't the only barometer of green size. In fact most of my favorite par fives tend to have smaller greens that either are difficult to hold in two or challenge the player on their third shot.

A long difficult hypothetically works better with a slightly larger green, as it counteracts the distance advantage to some extent and allows for a better chance to hit the green with a well played shot.   I'm all in on the non-formulaic argument though given my new found penchant for quirk.




p.s.   tweaked this after reading Adrian's reply below
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 08:32:26 AM by archie_struthers »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2020, 06:02:54 AM »
no rules.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2020, 10:23:42 AM »



no rules.






Wouldn't that be a pretty good philosophy for the entire golf course?




Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2020, 10:55:35 AM »



no rules.




No rules make sense but pretty much every architect has some predilections.




Wouldn't that be a pretty good philosophy for the entire golf course?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2020, 10:58:24 AM »
THere are certainly rules.... min size, max size, max slope, etc...


But yes like any other good golf course the rule of thumb is variety.  I wouldn't mind playing 1 or 2 holes on a course with a ball busting par 4 with a small green where bogey feels like a decent result.  But a whole course full of em?  Save it for the US Open...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2020, 02:07:28 PM »

Yeah, gotta say the "no rules" thing doesn't make much sense if you believe "form follows function."  I agree there should be some exceptions, always, but at some point, "if it feels good do it" takes you from decent golf with variety across a line to "goofy golf."


I do consider USGA Slope stats, Broadie and others stats, etc. to at least make a preliminary "minimum" size determination for the green.  I may not stick to it, but at least I don't want to unintentionally design a green very few can hit.  In hopes of creating variety, I don't just look at each green site and design just to fit it (remember, only a few projects worldwide have sites that just call out for a green, most just have general slope direction and steepness, and perhaps a natural hazard or two to work with.


After calculating approximate green size, I break holes into groups of 4 or 5 - i.e., par 3, par 4 short, par 4 long, and par 5.  Among each of those 4 holes, I look at my design preconceptions and the site to try to have a mix of small, medium and large green sizes for those approach shots.  It's an attempt to differentiate the challenges on similar length holes.  Rinse, cycle, repeat based on a whole lot of other factors.  Of course, this is on paper, always subject to future change on paper or ground if I see something different that is possible and better.


But for instance, if I am looking at the group of 4 long par 4 holes, I recall Nicklaus saying he liked a two tier green on downwind, long par 4's, and he would use less spin to "chase a ball up to the top tier" to best avoid hazards.  I like to encourage actual run up shots for good players, so I look for the longest downwind par 4 and use it there.  I also agree with Pete Dye that the best way to challenge long irons is smaller greens on the longer par 4 and 3 holes, and sometimes the longest of each (and par 5) gets a smaller green that is essentially a single smaller target.  It may not be a postage stamp, but it is smaller for the length of the shot that many would expect (also relies on the theory that TD mentions - most average golfers more likely to come up just short, even with multiple tees, so it doesn't matter what size green is to them.) The other two long par 4 are medium size and focus on angle of attack, different "Sunday pin" locations, etc.


One of the reasons for this approach comes from starting my career with Killian and Nugent, who later on collaborated with Jim Colbert.  (which I continued when I started my own firm) They weren't golfers, and hearing Jim talk about how good players approached the game was a revelation (which KN didn't always accept, but I found fascinating.  Jim came to tour Kemper Lakes one day.  The 6th was one of Dick's pet concepts, an hourglass green.  Colbert stood on the tee and asked what the ((#* he was thinking?  The narrow, long green was fine, but why put it on a hole that normally plays in a strong crosswind?  Colbert figured if he would have trouble hitting it (he was top 20 on the money list that year) who else could?  So, yeah, I rough in green size (which is, in fact, statistically proportional to approach distance) and I even add a few yards of width in cross winds, and depth on downwind holes (which reduces spin and causes longer roll outs).


I also rough in actual and effective approach shot distance.  One reason I am even posting this is I was working on a master plan this morning.  One hole, which the pro said is "tough as nails" actually calculates out in an unsurprising manner to his opinion.  It is 456 yards, both consistently uphill (including landing zone, which kills roll) and into the prevailing wind.  The tee shot is probably 7 yards shorter for elevation difference, 5-10 yards for wind, and another 5-10 yards for no roll, meaning the 290 hitter (I use the average Tour driving distance from the back tees, not the max) would only hit it about 265, leaving another 191 up the hill, again playing effectively longer for wind (another, say 10 yards) and elevation different (only 5 yards this time, for an effective playing distance of 206.  The USGA slope guide would call for a green about 77 feet wide, but it has grown in to be about 70% of that.  So, I recommend that the green be widened and enlarged, with bunkers moved out a bit to allow a runup for average players, etc.


Again, part of the reason I do some math is to avoid unintentionally building a green no one can hit!  I believe it happens more than we think with many architects, although I may have been over traumatized by Colbert's reactions to many KN designs.  (I have also found winging it in the field, focused mostly on artwork tends to yield occasional crazy results. And, unlike many here, I do believe that one function of design is to allow golfers a reasonable chance to succeed, although certainly don't feel like I need to guarantee it.  When you get right down to it, is it right to design a hole that doesn't allow any kind of shot (within statistical reason) to hold it?  In the end, the answer is no, not intentionally.


And again, many here don't seem to think you can pre-think some aspects of green (or other) design and that if you draw a plan, you don't massage it in the field, which just isn't true for most architects.  IMHO, some things, as above, and adding desired angle of the green as another big factor, what elevation to set the front (for vision, floodplain, whatever) is best thought out on paper, while the final artwork (and any minor changes to the design as the spirit moves) is subject to continual review and tweaks.


As always, just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2020, 03:19:30 AM »
Jeff

I think form follows function makes great sense when talking about the practicalities of a design. I wouldn't say the same for the adventure of the design. One of my overwhelming memories of golf in the US is how similar the vast majority of course are. IMO, these results are at least partially due to codification in architecture...too many rules being followed for whatever reasons.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2020, 05:55:23 AM »
no rules.
I am referring to this .... such as a short par 3 must have a small green and long 4 par must have a big green.
Golf course design is not all about the golf so there are rules that need to be addressed for H & S issues and for Good maintenance practice.
if you have 10 par 4 holes and 4 par 3 holes and 4 par 5 holes then a config like this is gonna be pretty rubbish.. 3-3-3-3-4-4-4-4-4 (32) 4-4-4-4-4-5-5-5-5 (40).
The worst thing routing a course is when you find two great sites for short holes but they follow...it becomes quite a dilema weighing up the + & -s
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2020, 11:17:42 AM »

Adrian,


I would say the worst thing about routing a course is deciding what to do with those two great green sites, and they having the Owner cancel the project due to lack of funding, or whatever!  And, more seriously, I think a course with one or two consecutive 3's or 5' would be accepted if good enough (read: Really, really good) otherwise (see, Cypress Point.)  But your over the top example naturally wouldn't be, if for no other reason, I'm sure some architect in the design competition would come up with a suitable routing with more balance.  So, we talk abut black and white concepts when discussing such things, but the evaluation is more on a scale.


Sean,


Understand completely what you mean on the codification.  Maybe gca's are like old football coaches, and we get more conservative as we age, hearing all the critiques of various things and playing it safe.  That said, when you think of all the great modern courses, is it really because they took wild chances with things like green size, or is it that their emphasis was putting courses on great sites, whereas the post WWII emphasis was on putting (a lot of) courses in suburban neighborhoods?  I mean, Sand Hill's greens aren't out of the ordinary for size or what not.  I do recall both 14 and 17 as particularly hard to hit for different reasons, but not unreasonably so, given the wind, length, etc.  It's the spectacular site and style that allows the course to feel different than anything we play at home, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2020, 11:30:44 AM »
Jeff

I think it's completely natural for archies to rely on what they know works. There is a lot of talk about what comes next in architecture. The truth is, not many archies are well placed to be innovative even if they want to take serious risks. But I do think archies can move past 7000 yards, two returning 9s, four 5s, four 3s, ten 4s, prescribed bunker distances,  green sizes dependant on hole length and mega tees. Challenging these ruled is a good enough start.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Proportionality and green size
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2020, 11:55:42 AM »

Sean,


As to course length, I have been advocating for 7200 yards or bust.  If you can't get that for the top 1%, it doesn't matter. 7000 yards is kind of a no man's land right now, except perhaps on windy sites, or maybe as second tee sets in elevated areas.


I have proposed courses forget those players, and scale back to about 6800 yards, which covers about 17% of players specifically, and the course would play well for 99% of players.  Helps with water conservation and (in parkland courses) mowing time.  To paraphrase Churchill, "Never has so much golf course been built for so few." ;)   Or, in reality, cutting back tee length on many courses would really be a more critical look at form follows function. 


So, I'm still right! :D


I am still surprised at how many business consultants still advocate for 7,000 yards, while I am not aware of any study that actually proves those courses are more popular.  I have seen evidence that any golfer checking out a distant course looks at the web site to see if they have a set of tees near the yardage they prefer to play, but none that shows they insist on another 2-3 tees behind them that should be merely a rumor to them, and never come into play.  But, that image still persists.


Similarly, unbalanced nines seem to unnerve PGA pros who have to figure out how to assign handicaps, etc.  Doesn't seem to be an drastic problem to me, but then, I have never had to do that.


There is a difference between art and design.  In art you only have to please yourself as artist.  In design, you have to provide function and please the end user, so the question is always whether it's worth it to spend the owner's money to change someone's mind, when the cost may be the owner going out of business or struggling.  Again, in the case of Cypress Point, Sand Hills, and a few other spectacular sites, its a lot easier to overcome "conventional thinking".  Just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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