"The importance of the ground just before the green cannot be overstated."

[Tommy Williamsen]

So says our fearless leader on the new front page. I agree, but does this green complex depict a good front to the green or does it call for an aerial shot?

[Neil Regan]

Tommy,


That is the 14th at Machrihanish.
The tight shot does not show the full width of the entrance.
There are ways to bounce it on, and to fly it on.
And the whole fairway is one of the wonders of the golf world.
I have attached a drone shot from the club’s website.
Look at the huge hollows through the entire fairway, on the right edge of the golf course in this picture.
I have been told that the mines extend all the way beneath this fairway.
The mines closed in the 1960s, I think.
I believe the entrance is up in the hills in the background of Ran’s photo.


https://www.machgolf.com/course-gallery/

[Neil Regan]

Here is the drone shot with labels.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wow,can't get my jaw off the floor.


To be fair Tommy, the caption doesn't say 'ground game', just 'ground'. 

[Pete_Pittock]

While not just short of the green my landing areas on the 200 meter par 3s at St Andews Beach was  a series of mounds that sent the ball in any direction but straight.  THEY ACCOUNTED FOR ALL 3 BUNKERS I hit

[Thomas Dai]

Oh how I wish "The importance of the ground game just before the green cannot be overstated." were still the case, alas these
days as ever more historically firm and fast and bouncy links courses and heathlands have irrigation installed on the approaches to greens this situation is not the case. And some have fairway irrigation too (and some even bunker face irrigation!).
And even courses that don't approach irrigation will have splash and run-off and spray from greens irrigation finding its way on and around the approach areas.
atb


PS - anyone else notice the number of worm casts in the first photo on this thread? A subject in its own right.


PSS - there was a narrow gauge railway (and before that a canal) that ran from Campbeltown to the mines and Machrihanish village -https://www.machrihanish.net/machrihanish-railway/ - and now there are wind turbines on the hill. Such is progress.

[archie_struthers]

 


The shame of it all is that the modern game has changed the way we look at conditioning. I'd guess 70% of our customers here in the states like it lush and green. They tend to see anything else as in poor shape. Pity that more don't appreciate how much fun it could be playing firm and fast.


Also the easy way out for superintendents is to water more, despite the dangers inherent with disease. That's why many of  here have such a love for the firm conditions espoused as the goal. For a brief shining minute the other day Riviera shone thru, giving some of the best players in the world fits. However the ability to hit the ball 320 yards negated a little of that. Note the tee shots on 18 , which anyone who has played there no doubt  doesn't see it as a short par four. Nevertheless it was fun to watch!

[Peter Pallotta]

Hmm.
My first thought was that its importance *can* be overstated, and very often is these days.
Sometimes I get a little tired of gca being viewed (and judged) through the lens of golfers like me and Ran.
Not that there's anything wrong with us (or the millions like us).
But I think the lens of a golfer like Mickey Wright should be valued/considered too.
Indeed, the charm, aesthetics & naturalism of heaving/rolling green surrounds aside, I think it should be valued *more* than ours.   

[Ally Mcintosh]

So says our fearless leader on the new front page. I agree, but does this green complex depict a good front to the green or does it call for an aerial shot?

Tommy,

On a number of occasions, I have proffered my opinion that despite the gorgeousness and fun that comes with a bunch of links undulations, the ground game is actually most alive at the flatter, more predictable links courses where bouncing one in to the green gives a surer outcome.

I LOVE links undulations. And I LOVE playing along the ground for shots in and around the green on courses with big surround movement. But for approach shots, these are not the best examples of "ground game" golf courses. It is lazy to equate one with the other.

I should know - I haven't cleaned my grooves for 20 years in a deliberate sabotage of my game.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,


I agree that flatter (or consistently sloped to make the shot somewhat predictable) makes sense as encouraging the ground game more.  I have heard often that Pete Dye designs look linksy, but in fact, all the contours in front of the green actually discourage the ground game for any thinking player in today's golf.


I understand the appeal of adding (or saving natural) a bit more chance and fun bounces, and using contours to defend par, etc., but it doesn't make sense to most players playing for score.


I agree with Pete that yes, almost any opinion can be overstated, to the point where it is assumed as fact.


My old joke was that I would design more for the ground game when I saw ads for clubs and balls that "fly lower.....with less spin!"  That said, I remember Jack Tuthill saying about 1980 that he wished approaches were more contoured and that they were the most ignored feature in golf course architecture.  This was partially in response to the HWW 1965  article in GD about bringing back the Ross mounding, which had also been ignored in the RTJ era.  But, if you are going to build subtle contours around the back and sides (which seemed to be Ross motif) why not in the approach which has the most effect on play?

[Thomas Dai]

Re Jeffs point about flight and spin, with the way watered approaches on GB&I links courses are these days it can be pretty awkward to play mid-length and shortish ground game shots landing in front of greens and releasing as the spiny ball just grabs and stops quickly instead of running out. So if you still wish to land shots short and let them release and roll-out a lower flight, lower spin ball may well have merit.
Atb

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ran chose to use the 14th at Machrihanish and caption it with: "The importance of the ground just before the green cannot be overstated". His caption to the same photo that's in the 2019 review of the course says:  "Imagine all the possible iterations. On a still day the golfer can fly the ball onto the putting surface and save himself a headache. In any kind of wind - against, following, or cross - and a slew of other options need to be weighed by the player".

If over watering is the gripe, then I'm wholeheartedly in on that, but 14 seems to be a well rounded hole created in a much earlier era that still thrills the lucky players who finds themselves on it.

Doesn't get much better than that. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jim,


I love the 14th at Machrihanish.


But it is far from the best example of “the importance of the ground”.


Actually, maybe that’s wrong: The ground tells you that it’s better to use the air.

[David_Tepper]

"Actually, maybe that’s wrong: The ground tells you that it’s better to use the air."

To quote Jack Nicklaus, "there are no bad bounces in the air."

[Tommy Williamsen]

I would love to hit a rolling shot into that green. Rolly polly ground make the game more fun. That's what I love about links golf. My favorite fairway in the world. Number 6 at Westward Ho! It is like this all the way to the green.

[Kalen Braley]

"Actually, maybe that’s wrong: The ground tells you that it’s better to use the air."

To quote Jack Nicklaus, "there are no bad bounces in the air."

Yes but there are gusts and such that will blow your ball to hell! 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would love to hit a rolling shot into that green. Rolly polly ground make the game more fun. That's what I love about links golf. My favorite fairway in the world. Number 6 at Westward Ho! It is like this all the way to the green.

Great fun - love it.


But watching your score or trying to win a match, decisions are sometimes different.

[Ira Fishman]

Hmm.
My first thought was that its importance *can* be overstated, and very often is these days.
Sometimes I get a little tired of gca being viewed (and judged) through the lens of golfers like me and Ran.
Not that there's anything wrong with us (or the millions like us).
But I think the lens of a golfer like Mickey Wright should be valued/considered too.
Indeed, the charm, aesthetics & naturalism of heaving/rolling green surrounds aside, I think it should be valued *more* than ours.   

I am with Peter.  I love the challenge and fun of the ground game.  I am not sure that I have more enjoyment than playing golf on links courses.  My life actually is richer and fuller because of trips to Ireland, Scotland, and Bandon. But there simply are some wonderful courses where the ground game is not the focus, and there are terrific holes on links courses that the ground game in front of the green is not the reason the hole is great.  Foxy being a prime if not the prime example.


Theology can run the risk of becoming theocratic.


Ira

[Jim_Kennedy]

I would love to hit a rolling shot into that green. Rolly polly ground make the game more fun. That's what I love about links golf. My favorite fairway in the world. Number 6 at Westward Ho! It is like this all the way to the green.

Great fun - love it.
But watching your score or trying to win a match, decisions are sometimes different

'I think it may be justly observed that the moment competition enters into the affairs of life, individuality ceases to exist and standardization results. Singularity is crushed in the interest of uniformity. And thus owing to the stress today placed upon competition in golf, golf architecture has come to be rationalized. The old road which seemed to wander with no intent or purpose , and from which wandered off byroads to fool the traveler, has now become a well posted concrete highway . Every inducement is offered to step upon the accelerator as long as one can keep the car of skill from slipping into the rough.' - M. Behr

[Peter Pallotta]

'And yet, as honesty compels me to add, it may also be noted that when competition is anathematized and the pursuit of mastery stigmatized rather than celebrated, excellence in design is battered by the tyranny of the majority and constrained by the pell-mell of consensus opinion -- the sad refrain of a human history determined to banish the life-giving spirit of the law in favour of its deadening letter, and to be comforted by the tepid warmth of conventional mediocrity. The once new road, the grass and woody tracks laid over time by countless travelers guided by instinct and a love of beauty, becomes now the fixed road of modern and well-meaning convention, in asphalt and steel. And yet again we find that the ancients spoke truly: the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions' - Peter P

[Jim_Kennedy]

'And yet, as honesty compels me to add, it may also be noted that when competition is anathematized and the pursuit of mastery stigmatized rather than celebrated, excellence in design is battered by the tyranny of the majority and constrained by the pell-mell of consensus opinion -- the sad refrain of a human history determined to banish the life-giving spirit of the law in favour of its deadening letter, and to be comforted by the tepid warmth of conventional mediocrity. The once new road, the grass and woody tracks laid over time by countless travelers guided by instinct and a love of beauty, becomes now the fixed road of modern and well-meaning convention, in asphalt and steel. And yet again we find that the ancients spoke truly: the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions' - Peter P


Channeling Howard Roark again Peter? 

[Peter Pallotta]

Gary Cooper was, I think, miscast in that role.
I am equally miscast, around here, as Howard Roark!
I'd like to think that M. Behr and I could've been friends   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Hmm,
I recently watched an interpreter, who, after listening to a long winded monologue, translated it into less than ten words for the audience. I'm thinking she'd be invaluable in any conversation between you and your friend Max.   

[Sean_A]

Hmm,
I recently watched an interpreter, who, after listening to a long winded monologue, translated it into less than ten words for the audience. I'm thinking she'd be invaluable in any conversation between you and your friend Max.   

Ouch, but funny 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jim,


I see you reference this thread on the Alnmouth Village thread.


I was -of course- being a little simple in my posts above. Undulations in front of the green (like the 5th at AV) do make you think a little, especially downwind when the pin is on the front. No undulations and it’s a no-brainer: You use the ground to bump one in. But with undulations like those, you may choose air or you might actually go closer to the ground by making sure the ball is running very early.


These kind of ground contours are awesome. They look really cool and can provide options. But my point was that the flatter courses will actually see you USE the ground on a few more shots per round, maybe just not in such a varied way.