“It’s just so hard to separate yourself on this golf course“

[Matt_Cohn]

That’s what Dottie Pepper said in praising Riviera. Ian Baker-Finch immediately concurred.


Isn’t that bad, though? I figured that a great golf course would create more separation, not less.

[Peter Pallotta]

Matt -
they said what my own eyes were telling me. Yes, there are a couple of long Par 4s, but in general the short hitters could compete with the long ones (ie it wasn't a long drive championship), and the average putters weren't immediately at a dramatic disadvantage relative to the excellent putters (i.e. it wasn't a putting contest), and accuracy was important but not all important (i.e. it was neither a 'second shot golf course' nor a 'US Open test). In short: it didn't seem to strongly preference one type of player/skill set over another -- and so I could see how it would be hard to 'separate yourself' from the field. And that seems wonderful to me -- the  architectural ideal. The only reservation I have is that Tiger hasn't won there; they used to say it was because there weren't 4 Par 5s, but I always thought that was a poor explanation because it ignored that the GOAT was truly a complete player, excellent at all facets of the game, not just someone who relied on length.       

[JESII]

It’s an interesting concept to consider. I suspect Dottie simply threw it out there without any thought and IBF agreed simply because no one had, in fact, separated themselves.


But...to try to take it at face value.


It looks to me that you can birdie most of the holes with good aggressive play (except 15 and 16, they look full on brutally difficult to Sunday pins). But you don’t play aggressive when you have the lead. On a tough course, you go just a little bit conservative. Once you’re ahead, and take birdie out of play simply through that ounce of conservatism, you’re one small mistake from a bogey.


So a guy 5 behind can make up 4 shots in an hour simply because the leader naturally stays away from the corners while one of the 10 guys 5 back hits the shots and makes the putts.


Typing on the phone sucks...

[Brock Lynch]

I watched most of the play on Sunday on TV and have been to Riviera to watch the LA Open 20+ times. Pin placements were tough, but typical of a Sunday at Riviera. The firmness of the golf course is what made the course a great test. Not crazy firm, but firm enough to make hitting the fairways important and angle into the greens important. Adam Scott's drive on #13 and subsequent birdie there was a perfect example of how precise you needed to be to make birdies out there. I thought the course was magnificent and a breath of fresh air compared to the super soft conditions they usually play in on tour every week. I think it would be easier to separate yourself under such conditions, if you are a precise player like Adam Scott. Notice that length was the not the factor that it usually is. Adam Scott drove it long and straight and was rewarded for it.

Cheers

[Alex Miller]

For all the fuss made about Kikuyu when the tour pros come to Riv around the short game shots, it really was the factor that provided a nice balance to the skill set required to succeed this past week.


Brock is absolutely right that the dry winter here in L.A. allowed Riv to shine extra bright this week. Obviously the firmness made some of the approaches that much more difficult, and combined with the sticky Kikuyu did not allow the ground game to unfurl like we've seen at Royal Melbourne or other great courses. But it did make hitting the fairway that much more important!


The rough this week was not as thick as in some years past, and most players were still able to advance their ball to the greens, but the advantage of playing from the fairway where one could spin and control their approach was paramount this week, as Brock described in his example.

[Bob Brightly]

Is it just a coincidence that Jack has never won at Riviera either? Is there something else that keeps the best from separating from a strong field?

[David_Tepper]

"Is it just a coincidence that Jack has never won at Riviera either? Is there something else that keeps the best from separating from a strong field?"

Ben Hogan didn't have a problem separating himself from the field at Riviera (aka "Hogan's Alley").

https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2020/02/15/why-is-riviera-country-club-called-hogans-alley-16131/

[Pete Lavallee]

It’s no secret why Tiger hasn’t won at Riviera. He’s around even par over his career on par 3’s and 4’s but 1500 under par on par 5’s! Everyone reaches #1 in 2 so that only leaves 2 holes for him to show how good he is in the 200-250 range. He is still one of the best iron players on the planet and grew up on Poa Annua greens so it is a bit of a mystery why he struggles there?

[Mark_Fine]

You could make this statement about many golf courses.  Riviera is a great golf course.  I have played it about a half dozen times and it is special but I don't buy the statement.  Tiger was able to separate himself from the field 

[Matt_Cohn]

If it's hard for the best players to separate themselves, does that mean the course doesn't sufficiently reward superior skill?

[JESII]

It would be a fine line to draw between rewarding skill and challenging every aspect.


I didn't watch enough to comment on Adam Scott's golf, but should he have won by 5? Did he hit shots that should have seen a better result but didn't?


My limited watching told me it took exceptionally good shots to manage stress-free pars. Some contenders found a way to hit lower quality shots but still find a way to make enough pars and some birdies.

[Lov Goel]

As with most things, I think this goes back to the definitions you hold for the key word in the phrase.  Here, "great" is the word that's the source of the question.  A great golf course, to some, might be one that causes great players to seperate themselves.  Historically, you could look at TPC Sawgrass, ANGC, St. Andrews, wherever has the long, distinguished list of past champions that we've all heard of and say that those are great golf courses.  Others might look at the difference between the winning score and 5th/10th/20th place to determine greatness.


I'd argue the two have little, if anything, to do with one another.  A great golf course, to me, is not defined by how the top .001% of players happen to play it on a given weekend.  I'd also say the course the PGA TOUR plays is rarely the course that is there for the other 51 weeks of the year.

Semantics aside, whether this particular version of Riv was a great test of the complete set of skills required to play PGA TOUR golf for the players this weekend, I think you'd have to say yes because no one skillset seemed to be at an advantage. 

[mike_beene]

How many times did Nicklaus play LA? Just a question.
If they played these conditions more frequently the 8 iron chip would come back. There were some strange off the green putts. Ray Floyd would have loved it.

[Kalen Braley]

I only caught bits and pieces of the tourney, but this sounds like a positive to me because it seems it took a balanced approach to win there this week. 


Bomb and gougers couldn't over power it, and the accuracy guys were tested with longish approaches.  Sounds like a great setup to me...

[JESII]

And if one were that par 4 everyone thinks it should be, 7 under would have won and only 9 people would have been under par...

[Tom_Doak]

Devil's Advocate:


On a low slope rating course, where you are tringbto get people around without too many x's, it is by definition harder to separate yourself from the field.  To me, that's the way it should be.  Making it narrow and hard in order to eliminate everyone who drives crooked is a horrible recipe for non-elite players.


 It isn't the job of the golf course to sort out the best player; that's the players' job and it should be hard to do.


That said, Riviera is not exactly what I would think of as a low slope golf course.  There is plenty of trouble for off line tee shots and I think that's the reason Tiger has not won there.  He's a great driver if you combine length + accuracy, but if you stress accuracy and bad drives are blocked by trees, that suits Ben Hogan more than Tiger Woods.

[JESII]

I've never been to Firestone, but it sure looks like it would penalize crooked tee shots...


I think it's something else at Riviera..not sure what, just something nobody has touched on yet.


Could it be as stupid as hometown nerves all these years?

[Alex Miller]

Tom, I know you're just playing DA but why does slope even come into the equation here? No one is getting shots... these golfers are all already in the same elite tier.

[Ian Andrew]

I had a couple of opportunities to walk the course with Mike Weir in the late 2000's. He had won in 2003 and 2004 and we decided it was great place to go and talk about golf architecture.

He was very specific about where he wanted to go and why on each hole. He broke down each hole in detail talking about aspects of the design he could use to be helpful, places to avoid, places to miss, but specifically about risks not worth taking. A good example is not going for the 10th hole. he didn't once in any round in both wins.

I think the biggest surprise was how much he varied his approach on specific holes based upon the pin location. He was very aware of what was a dangerous putt or a bad place to try and pitch from. He said quite a few times that you can't win here unless you really understand this design.

It was one of his favorites long before he won there. He said he really struggled for years before things began to click and he felt he was unlocking a way to play it more successfully. I told a lot of stories about playing the course, most were about where things went horribly wrong.

I thought I'd share this because I thought it might fit into where the conversation is drifting.

[JMEvensky]

Ian, thanks for taking the time to type that. I always enjoy reading your long form responses.


And I still don't understand the original question--who's separating themselves from whom? Is this just a discussion about which type of player Riviera most favors?

[Matt_Cohn]

Ian, thanks for taking the time to type that. I always enjoy reading your long form responses.


And I still don't understand the original question--who's separating themselves from whom? Is this just a discussion about which type of player Riviera most favors?

The question is about whether it’s good, bad, or neutral if a golf course produces a relatively small divergence in scores between players who are playing great and those who are playing just good—specifically Tour players in this case.

[Kalen Braley]

Ian, thanks for taking the time to type that. I always enjoy reading your long form responses.

And I still don't understand the original question--who's separating themselves from whom? Is this just a discussion about which type of player Riviera most favors?

The question is about whether it’s good, bad, or neutral if a golf course produces a relatively small divergence in scores between players who are playing great and those who are playing just good—specifically Tour players in this case.

Matt,


I contend its a good thing in this situation because the fairways didn't look absurdly narrow like a US Open situation, which seems to invite more luck than skill.


I think it'd be interesting to look at all the winners from Riv over the last 10-20 years and see if they are more bomb and gouge or accurate types.

[Tal Oz]

Ian, thanks for taking the time to type that. I always enjoy reading your long form responses.

And I still don't understand the original question--who's separating themselves from whom? Is this just a discussion about which type of player Riviera most favors?

The question is about whether it’s good, bad, or neutral if a golf course produces a relatively small divergence in scores between players who are playing great and those who are playing just good—specifically Tour players in this case.

Matt,


I contend its a good thing in this situation because the fairways didn't look absurdly narrow like a US Open situation, which seems to invite more luck than skill.


I think it'd be interesting to look at all the winners from Riv over the last 10-20 years and see if they are more bomb and gouge or accurate types.

@JMEvensky, as I understand it separation is when a small group (1-4 players or so) of leaders start running away from the rest of the field. Creating a cushion of shots between the leaders who are playing exceptional golf and the merely great golf to be in the top 10. Andy from the Fried Egg who occasionally posts here frequently talks about the better courses tend to separate the exceptional from the merely great. I personally think this year no one up near the top of the leaderboard really made a full run on Sunday while the final group was barely holding on, hence the comment that started this thread. Adam Scott only needed a -1 70 to win by 2.

@Kalen, one of Andy's favorite stats about Riv is that no one under the age of 28 has won in like 15 years there. Experience matters at Riv and a fast & firm Riviera with shorter rough produced a wonderful tournament with a tight leaderboard.