[David_Tepper]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18152915.bid-help-save-historic-golf-courses-climate-change/

[Niall C]

David

Can you please delete this thread as it shows the R&A in a good light which is totally contradictory to the official group think on this site.

Thank You

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

No Niall,


this is just the sort of thing the R&A should be doing. Just because someone criticises the R&A it doe not mean that they are anti/against the R&A. It is nice to be able to say 'well done'.


Jon

[Troy Miller]

Here in Charleston the projections are for approximately 3-4' of rise over the next 50 years. That number was in large part why we are elevating the holes along the Stono River by 5'-7' at Charleston Municipal. The Ocean Course at Kiawah has dealt with the erosion issues as well and a constantly changing high water line caused by accretion and erosion of the adjacent beach.  Finding creative solutions to counteract these events is becoming more and more common in renovation projects and is particularly difficult in areas that lack significant elevation change that doesn't allow for vertical seawalls to be erected to combat erosion.   

[Rob Marshall]

Here in Charleston the projections are for approximately 3-4' of rise over the next 50 years. That number was in large part why we are elevating the holes along the Stono River by 5'-7' at Charleston Municipal. The Ocean Course at Kiawah has dealt with the erosion issues as well and a constantly changing high water line caused by accretion and erosion of the adjacent beach.  Finding creative solutions to counteract these events is becoming more and more common in renovation projects and is particularly difficult in areas that lack significant elevation change that doesn't allow for vertical seawalls to be erected to combat erosion.

Troy, I played the Muni in November. What holes are on the River 14 and 15?

[Thomas Dai]

And if you combine sea level rise projections for the next few decades with estimated population increases over the same period there’s likely to be even less ‘golf space’ on dry, otherwise unused land available. But ‘if’ is the middle word in ‘life’ whilst the future is in the future and projections and estimates are projections and estimates.
Fingers crossed.

Atb

[Troy Miller]

Rob, the 13th -15th (Par 4,3,5 respectively) are all adjacent to the river and sit at a very low elevation (+/-4.0). All three are being raised with material from the pond expansions and the dike along the Stono is being reinforced and raised as well. At the end of the day, the idea is expand stormwater capacity and improve drainage, while keeping the tidewater out.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks Troy, I noticed some water damage on the 15th fairway. I didn’t realize that there was a river there. My northern eye saw it as a marsh. Are you doing some tree work during the renovation? I thought the first par 3’s on the front and the back had trees somewhat blocking the green. Loved the green complex on the 2nd par 5 on the front. I grew up on a muni and enjoyed the feel at Charleston.

[David Harshbarger]

Salinification is one of main vectors of change from sea-level rise:


Ground-water becomes brackish
Existing flora dies and may be replaced by salt-tolerant species


Does raising the course protect against this?  Are there other techniques, such as salt-tolerant grass strains?


Here's a list from Business Insider of populated areas at risk of flooding.  Some golf areas to reflect on:

• Miami Beach
• Atlantic City
• Hilton Head

That article cites predictions of as much as 8 feet of sea level rise in the next 80 years based on 2017 rates. If all the Antarctic ice melts then the new "steady-state" sea level would be about 200' above today's levels.


Pro-tip buy up that land at the 200' mark now, you're great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren will thank you for the waterfront property.  And they say no one's making more waterfront property!  Bah!

[Niall C]

I can't recall if it is in the article David has provided the link to but there was a recent article about it that listed one of the courses in danger as being Muirfield. If Murfield ever gets flooded then we're all in trouble !

Niall

[David Harshbarger]

The Statue of Liberty is 305' tall.  While most scientists deny that global warming will bring rocky cliffs to North Jersey, worst case sea level rise would leave this fine lady up to her knickers...



Whether Muirfield will suffer a similar fate is anyone's guess :-)

[Tom Birkert]

I'll take whatever bets anyone wants that these scare stories turn out to be a load of codswallop.


Long term projections - on anything - are a guess. Even more so when dealing with something this complex.


If - and I stress the hypothetical - there is a problem in the future then I'm sure technology will enable us to adapt (for instance a lot of Holland is beneath sea level!).


I'll start to be really worried about this sort of thing when the doomsayers don't buy large estates on Martha's Vineyard, own ocean front property and stop flying privately. Until then, I'll go with natural variation and human progress being able to solve any issues.

[John Emerson]

I'll take whatever bets anyone wants that these scare stories turn out to be a load of codswallop.


Long term projections - on anything - are a guess. Even more so when dealing with something this complex.


If - and I stress the hypothetical - there is a problem in the future then I'm sure technology will enable us to adapt (for instance a lot of Holland is beneath sea level!).


I'll start to be really worried about this sort of thing when the doomsayers don't buy large estates on Martha's Vineyard, own ocean front property and stop flying privately. Until then, I'll go with natural variation and human progress being able to solve any issues.

What scare stories?  Sea levels have risen significantly, and will continue to rise at a faster clip as the average temp climbs (which it has).  This is happening regardless if you want to believe it or not.

[Kalen Braley]

Agreed John.

Apparently this is just make believe... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/12/191210111701.htm

"The rate of ice loss has risen from 33 billion tonnes per year in the 1990s to 254 billion tonnes per year in the last decade -- a seven-fold increase within three decades."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/ice_sheet.htm

"The Greenland ice sheet occupies about 82% of the surface of Greenland, and if melted would cause sea levels to rise by 7.2 metres."

[David_Tepper]

"I'm sure technology will enable us to adapt (for instance a lot of Holland is beneath sea level!)."

Holland has 451km of coastline to defend/protect. The United Kingdom has 12,400km of coastline. Adapting there (or in Florida, with 1,350km of coastline) is going to be a little tougher and a lot more expensive. 

[John Emerson]

If “Us” vs. nature is a fight I’m betting the farm on nature every single time. We will lose this fight eventually.  We can put copious amounts of band-aids on the wound but, at the end of the day band-aids can’t fix compound fractures.  We will spend tons of money over the next few decades to try and delay loss of our lovely golf courses.  Unfortunately, it’s almost eminent that we will lose many of our beloved ones in the future. 

[Mark Pearce]

I'll take whatever bets anyone wants that these scare stories turn out to be a load of codswallop.


Long term projections - on anything - are a guess. Even more so when dealing with something this complex.


If - and I stress the hypothetical - there is a problem in the future then I'm sure technology will enable us to adapt (for instance a lot of Holland is beneath sea level!).


I'll start to be really worried about this sort of thing when the doomsayers don't buy large estates on Martha's Vineyard, own ocean front property and stop flying privately. Until then, I'll go with natural variation and human progress being able to solve any issues.

How old are you, Tom?  Because I'll take your bet, but only if you're going to be around to pay up in 30 years.

[Jeff Schley]

I'll take whatever bets anyone wants that these scare stories turn out to be a load of codswallop.


Long term projections - on anything - are a guess. Even more so when dealing with something this complex.


If - and I stress the hypothetical - there is a problem in the future then I'm sure technology will enable us to adapt (for instance a lot of Holland is beneath sea level!).


I'll start to be really worried about this sort of thing when the doomsayers don't buy large estates on Martha's Vineyard, own ocean front property and stop flying privately. Until then, I'll go with natural variation and human progress being able to solve any issues.

How old are you, Tom?  Because I'll take your bet, but only if you're going to be around to pay up in 30 years.

I'd like some action on this too Tom. There are numerous phrases regarding the power of nature that persevere for a reason. I certainly think not addressing climate change aggressively is gambling with the planet's future. I thought worldwide cooperation such as the Paris climate agreement was the type of actions needed.we shall see but what a huge gamble if the naysayers are wrong in the face of so much evidence.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Coastal defences can protect against erosion, but rising sea levels are on another scale completely.  Unless you encase the entire low-lying coastline in an impenetrable wall the water will simply find a way round the outside of whatever obstacle is placed in its way.

A low lying area within a bay protected by headlands on either side may be defensible, but an open expanse of linksland on an estuary or a peninsular is inevitably going to have to be sacrificed. To think otherwise is pissing in the wind.

If sea levels really are to rise by several metres then the loss of a few hundred golf courses is the least of mankind's problems.

St Andrews will always have the Castle Course...

[Thomas Dai]

Unless you encase the entire low-lying coastline in an impenetrable wall the water will simply find a way round the outside of whatever obstacle is placed in its way.

A wall, now there’s an idea. Not just any wall though, but a big wall, a beautiful wall, the worlds greatest wall. I wonder if there are any golf course owners/operators out there with experience of building walls?
Atb

[Niall C]

"I'm sure technology will enable us to adapt (for instance a lot of Holland is beneath sea level!)."

Holland has 451km of coastline to defend/protect. The United Kingdom has 12,400km of coastline. Adapting there (or in Florida, with 1,350km of coastline) is going to be a little tougher and a lot more expensive.

David

The length of the UK coastline varies depending on how much it follows every small inlet. Isupect it would only be a fraction of that length if you worked on the basis of building a wall in a straight line. That said, I did read a press report from some scientist who was advocating creating a damn across the north sea from north of Scotland to Scandinavia and another from the south of England across the channel to the continent. Typical east coast bias if you ask me.

Niall

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

Here is another source showing the coastline for the UK being 17,800km:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastline_of_the_United_Kingdom

Regardless of what measure you use, the point is the coastline of the UK is way more than that of Holland.

DT

[Ian Mackenzie]

You should see what is happening alonmg the shores of Lake Michigan these days.
I have lived in Chicago for 30+ years and the lake is the highest it's ever been.


Friends in Michigan are literally having to move their homes, garages and posessions away from the water as the lake levels are up close to 3 feet in just the past 5 years. Beaches are vanishing and coastal erosion is clos


I wonder how Whistling Straits is doing.


Oak Street beach in downtown Chicago is 1/3 the size it was 5 years ago.


Bike and jogging paths may be closed, too.

[Troy Miller]

Thanks Troy, I noticed some water damage on the 15th fairway. I didn’t realize that there was a river there. My northern eye saw it as a marsh. Are you doing some tree work during the renovation? I thought the first par 3’s on the front and the back had trees somewhat blocking the green. Loved the green complex on the 2nd par 5 on the front. I grew up on a muni and enjoyed the feel at Charleston.

Rob,
Yes, there is an extensive tree removal program as part of this renovation.  The Live Oaks are protected, and in many cases we have removed pines to expose them to the line of play. In the particular instance you are remembering, the Par 3 4th hole, the green is shifting to left as the Live Oak has grown out into the line of play from the right. 


The Par 5 7th is a Knoll Hole and will remain largely unchanged, but the green will be expanded to the full extent of the plateau. 


As for missing the river, I can't blame you - between all the overgrowth of cedars along the dike and the vast marsh basin it was hardly in your face. Hopefully it will be a bit more noteworthy post renovation.

[Marty Bonnar]

You should see what is happening alonmg the shores of Lake Michigan these days.
I have lived in Chicago for 30+ years and the lake is the highest it's ever been.


Friends in Michigan are literally having to move their homes, garages and posessions away from the water as the lake levels are up close to 3 feet in just the past 5 years. Beaches are vanishing and coastal erosion is clos


I wonder how Whistling Straits is doing.


Oak Street beach in downtown Chicago is 1/3 the size it was 5 years ago.


Bike and jogging paths may be closed, too.

What’s causing the rising water levels of the Lake?
F.

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