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Thomas Dai

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“How dare you”
« on: February 11, 2020, 03:07:11 PM »
“How dare you” is Greta Thunberg’s now famous line but what architectural changes to famous golf courses could the phrase also be applied to?
How about Clifford Roberts ‘revised’ 8th green at ANGC?

What would be some other examples?
Atb
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 03:52:20 PM by Thomas Dai »
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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2020, 03:17:29 PM »
FWIW, your image isn't appearing.
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Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2020, 03:52:48 PM »
Quote from: Erik J. Barzeski on February 11, 2020, 03:17:29 PM
FWIW, your image isn't appearing.
Thanks. Now corrected.
atb
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Alex Miller

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2020, 06:27:52 PM »
Hot take!


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Scott McWethy

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 05:34:13 PM »
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archie_struthers

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 06:34:51 PM »
 :'(


Alex and Scott, yes indeed!
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 09:41:53 PM »
Quote from: Alex Miller on February 11, 2020, 06:27:52 PM
Hot take!





Is that Pine Valley? 


I won't say where I thought it was at first, they would not like the comparison.
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JReese

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2020, 01:34:25 AM »
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"Bunkers are not places of pleasure; they are for punishment and repentance." - Old Tom Morris

OChatriot

Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 07:27:44 AM »
A few years ago, The Addington decided to flatten some humps in the middle of the crumpled 10th fairway, around where you would hit your second shot from. Beggars belief.

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Niall C

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 07:35:15 AM »
Same question, is the photo in Alex Millers post Pine Valley ?


Niall
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archie_struthers

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 08:19:59 AM »
 :'( :'(


Yes . Tom Paul and I often talked about the possibility of tree removal at my favorite golf course and it worked out so well on number 9.  The new look there is great!


Think that's all they needed to do on #12. Take out all the trees on the left, expose the existing bunkers, and play ball!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 08:25:20 AM by archie_struthers »
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Alex Miller

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 02:14:40 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 13, 2020, 09:41:53 PM
Quote from: Alex Miller on February 11, 2020, 06:27:52 PM
Hot take!





Is that Pine Valley? 


I won't say where I thought it was at first, they would not like the comparison.


Not my picture - I borrowed it from a thread about #12 at PV from last year (yes, this is purportedly that hole).


Initially I thought it might have been Tobacco Road, but from pictures TR does not have the 3-dimensional wallpaper effect that this bunkering has...  :-X :'(
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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2020, 07:26:47 AM »
Archie/Alex


Thanks for confirming.


Pre-comment caveat - I totally accept that it might look much better in real life.


Apart from the scale my biggest problem with this feature is the regular slow curve of the top of the mound allied to a similar straight line at the bottom. Take away the sand and it would be a fairly bland bund. You see that with a lot smaller bunkers that have had the supposed rugged look treatment.


Niall
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2020, 07:55:15 PM »
Can anyone think of any renovation or restoration (ha) work by Tom Fazio that actually DID fit in with the older stuff on site.  I actually can't think of any, because neither he nor his associates nor the shapers that work on their projects are trying to make it fit in. 


Example:  every added bunker at Riviera is 25-33% too big.
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Tim Martin

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2020, 08:13:04 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 16, 2020, 07:55:15 PM
Can anyone think of any renovation or restoration (ha) work by Tom Fazio that actually DID fit in with the older stuff on site.  I actually can't think of any, because neither he nor his associates nor the shapers that work on their projects are trying to make it fit in. 


Example:  every added bunker at Riviera is 25-33% too big.


Tom-I can think of two Golden Age courses right off the bat where the bunker shapes and sizes are reflective of Fazio and not the original architect. It’s the “Fazio Flourish”. :)

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Stewart Abramson

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2020, 08:28:06 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on February 13, 2020, 09:41:53 PM
Quote from: Alex Miller on February 11, 2020, 06:27:52 PM
Hot take!





Is that Pine Valley? 


I won't say where I thought it was at first, they would not like the comparison.


It is #12 at PV, but it's from a weird perspective. I think it is from a view of someone who hit a short slice off the tee, or perhaps a very forward tee that's further right than the other tee areas. Here's a view from the middle tee with a little zoom.



Pine Valley #12 from tee
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2020, 09:55:24 PM »
The work is being crucified on Twitter as well.


I'm wondering if it's Tom, Logan or Marzolf?  I'm assuming Tom is still on the board at PV and the consulting architect even though he's supposedly retired.


It won't take long (I'm guessing 10 years) before it's fixed by someone else.  Courses such as Oak Hill, Inverness, Bel Air, Merion have all moved on to other architects.
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Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2020, 10:25:50 PM »
Quote from: OChatriot on February 14, 2020, 07:27:44 AM
A few years ago, The Addington decided to flatten some humps in the middle of the crumpled 10th fairway, around where you would hit your second shot from. Beggars belief.


That's a damn shame.  It's what makes classic courses unique.  You can actually see the fairway work on Google maps.  What was the nature of the humps before?  Perhaps Clayton, Devries and Post can restore that feature.
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PCCraig

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2020, 11:16:13 PM »
I'm confused, what exactly is so wrong about the bunkering on the 12th at PV above? Not historically accurate?
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H.P.S.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2020, 06:04:08 AM »
Pat

Only speaking for myself, the first photo with the bunkering up the left simply looks rubbish for the reasons stated. They have tried to make a very unnatural looking bund look natural by covering it with a long frilly edged "natural" look bunker that looks anything but natural, so it's a fail on two counts.

The second photo of the carry bunker looks better as at least the hollow looks like a natural feature, but again they have draped a frilly edged bunker over it and it just doesn't look right to me. Basically it looks too new. It may weather in nicely and as I said perhaps it looks much better in real life.

Am I being too harsh ?

Niall
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archie_struthers

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2020, 07:19:58 AM »
 :'( :'(




It's not just the in your face look of the bunkering but the tree line. Previously , though overgrown, it was random. Not the staccato like line we see here.


I'm confident they will fix it over time, or at least hopeful.
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PCCraig

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2020, 09:17:33 AM »
Quote from: Niall C on February 17, 2020, 06:04:08 AM

Am I being too harsh ?



Niall -


I think so?
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H.P.S.

Adam Clayman

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2020, 09:25:40 AM »
The erosion found in nature, looks nothing like these frills.


I highly doubt anyone critical will get their bucket list checked.


Good luck Pat.

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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2020, 09:52:40 AM »
Thanks Pat, I can but dream that one day I'll find out for myself.

Niall
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Sean Leary

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Re: “How dare you”
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2020, 10:41:30 AM »
I’d like to see a recent before and after picture from the tee box, as the first picture here is from an odd angle. 


I have heard it looks better in person, and that the color of the sand looks better now.  Again, why trees weren’t just removed on the left for a season to start to see what you had before a decision to change it seems very odd.  There are people there who absolutely know what they are doing. The rest of the work there seems well done from pics ( I haven’t been there in 13 years). 


 This just seems like an attempt to create a modern frilly bunker look.  If you took a close up picture (black and white) of a bunker without saying where it was and asked the forum who the architect was, it would be interesting to see the answers. 😂
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