[Pete_Pittock]

i played Ocean Dunes yesterday. The wind was opposite of the prevailing wind and about 40 to 50 kph. The drop shot par 3 14th was directly downwind
What factors do you look at to determine how good a job was Done?
Since I was playing alone I didn't keep a card and only played about half the holes

[Ira Fishman]

Good question.  We played North Berwick on consecutive days with the wind coming in different directions each day, and on the second day, blowing probably up to 15-18 mph.  The fact that the course was wonderful both days seems to be confirmation of its quality.


On our visit to Bandon, the wind was very benign all four days.  Although we still enjoyed the courses a great deal, my gut tells me that stronger wind would have brought out even more of the quality and characteristics of the courses.


Ira

[Carl Johnson]

Are you asking about "rating" in the sense of the subjective quality of the course, or about the slightly more objective course rating and slope rating under the handicap system.  Right off I thought the latter, but then on reflection probably the former.  In any case, regarding the latter, I have no recollection of "wind direction" coming into play -- which is not to say it doesn't.  Just that I do not remember it.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Are you asking about "rating" in the sense of the subjective quality of the course, or about the slightly more objective course rating and slope rating under the handicap system.  Right off I thought the latter, but then on reflection probably the former.  In any case, regarding the latter, I have no recollection of "wind direction" coming into play -- which is not to say it doesn't.  Just that I do not remember it.

I think he means the subjective kind, but if there's a prevailing wind it can be taken into account (mostly affecting the effective playing length of a hole) on windy courses for the USGA course rating stuff.

But I think he means the other kind of "rating."

[Tom_Doak]

If you're talking about USGA course rating and slope, which I don't think you are, they use an "average" wind which is very unsatisfactory.  At windy spots like Cape Wickham or the sand hills, scores on a windy day would be so much higher that none of the rounds played would likely count for handicap computation.  Sand Hills and Ballyneal declined to post a course rating for that reason.


If you're talking about how should a rater / panelist judge a golf course for rankings, the magazines may offer different instructions, but my belief is that you rate the course as you played it.  Ocean Dunes may tell you "the wind never blows that way," but you know different, and your day on course [as one data point of many] should be taken into account.  If you tell raters to assume that conditions are always perfect or always giving you the prevailing wind the course was designed for, you're basically asking them to fudge their numbers higher.

[Matthew Mollica]

As a second data point Pete, I played Ocean Dunes last June and the wind was the strength and direction you describe.


13 was eminently reachable. 14 (for those who haven’t been there - a drop shot par 3 with hole length and gradient comparable to 7 at Pebble Beach) was a little sand wedge.


Even Greg Norman, who is FAR from the architectural authority we’d like to cite, spoke of holes being playable in 30mph downwind and 30mph headwind when his firm worked in the course at Cape Schanck 20 years ago. So the elasticity and playability of a course, in a broad range of wind strengths and directions, has to come into serious consideration when assessing the merits of a course, especially in coastal / windy locations.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you're talking about USGA course rating and slope, which I don't think you are, they use an "average" wind which is very unsatisfactory.  At windy spots like Cape Wickham or the sand hills, scores on a windy day would be so much higher that none of the rounds played would likely count for handicap computation. Sand Hills and Ballyneal declined to post a course rating for that reason.

Perhaps they will (or should) now that the PCC can adjust the course rating up to +3 on particularly tough scoring days.

[Pete Lavallee]

Exactly, the new WCS should factor that in with the course difficulty rating for that day.

[Pete_Pittock]

Should have used evaluat or assess instead of rate  is a golf course that plays reasonably well in a counter-wind a better design than one that doesn,t.
Ocean..Dunes has a number of holes that required specific shots and the wind direction didnt help.  Neither did my ball ending up in high grass near a beware of snakes sign.
My thoughts were it was not wide enough and the entry into greens was too restricted in that different wind directions required specific shots but we're acceptable to the play.
Someone asked me to compare OD A and Cape Wickham  My opinion is that Cape Wicckam is playablu in most winds from any direction, Ocran Dunes isnt

[Tom_Doak]

Exactly, the new WCS should factor that in with the course difficulty rating for that day.

I've thought for years that if everyone was entering their scores and their handicaps, any tech bro could quickly come up with a formula that computes a daily course rating based on the scores posted, skipping all of the b.s. that they use to compute the Slope and just going straight off the numbers.


But that would put the slope rating experts out of work, so, can't happen.


If you did do that, I feel pretty sure there are days on King Island where the correct course rating for a scratch player would be more than 3 shots above a calm day.  But maybe not 3 above an average day.

[Kyle Harris]

"This plays into the wind?!" might be one of the most inane comments on any tee.

Allow me to translate:


"I don't understand golf."

[Sean_A]

Exactly, the new WCS should factor that in with the course difficulty rating for that day.

I've thought for years that if everyone was entering their scores and their handicaps, any tech bro could quickly come up with a formula that computes a daily course rating based on the scores posted, skipping all of the b.s. that they use to compute the Slope and just going straight off the numbers.

But that would put the slope rating experts out of work, so, can't happen.

If you did do that, I feel pretty sure there are days on King Island where the correct course rating for a scratch player would be more than 3 shots above a calm day.  But maybe not 3 above an average day.

Its always been my undestanding that once the (I think) 3 shot threshold for weather was broken the competition doesn't count as a handicap qualifier.  I think some clubs used to ignore this for the guys who still under their handicap and still cut them regardless.

I don't account for wind when assessing a course except for the need for wider fairways and perhaps routes to reach greens on the ground if the course is meant for joe blow.  If the design of the course is to hold high level events it doesn't seem reasonable to hammer a course for a more restricted style of play.  That said, I still think its a good idea because most of the time pros will ignore the ground approach anyway.  That said, the best pro tournaments are when the pros are forced to consider the ground approaches..its quite rare, but does happen.  Mind you, even then there is generally only a "problem" when the tournament organizers overly tweek courses.   

Ciao 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But that would put the slope rating experts out of work, so, can't happen.

Most course raters (for course rating/slope) are volunteers. And, honestly, rating many of the courses can be a chore, but we do it because it's one way we can give back a little to the game.

And most courses need some sort of base level numbers, for days when a statistically non-significant number of golfers post a score.

[Tom_Doak]

And most courses need some sort of base level numbers, for days when a statistically non-significant number of golfers post a score.

You'd have accurate base level numbers after 100 days of posting scores.  I just don't think the USGA wants anyone checking their math.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pete -
on my home course the third hole is a 415 yard dog-leg left par 4 (the longest par 4 on the course), with bunkers guarding the inside line and a green that opens up for/is receptive to run up shots. In the summer months, the slight wind is behind/with me. In the spring and fall, when the wind is stronger and in my face, I have to constantly remind myself that I need to plan/play the hole differently, and that this is the game of golf, and that the architect knew & intended the hole to play harder on some days and easier on others. And if I don't constantly remind myself of this, I become petulant and churlish (in spring and fall) and start questioning the architect's skill and the quality of the golf hole. But, since there *is* a way to play the hole in the spring and fall, even if that way results in an easy bogey or hard par, I know the problem is with me, and not the architecture.
And then I still get petulant anyway.
 

[David Harshbarger]

If you're talking about USGA course rating and slope, which I don't think you are, they use an "average" wind which is very unsatisfactory.  At windy spots like Cape Wickham or the sand hills, scores on a windy day would be so much higher that none of the rounds played would likely count for handicap computation.  Sand Hills and Ballyneal declined to post a course rating for that reason.

Others on this board might know better, but doesn't the new World Handicap System (WHS) accommodate this phenomenon with their daily adjustment algorithm?

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