[Ira Fishman]

My guess is that Ran and Tom receive a fair number of messages along the lines of you must check out X course.  I doubt that those messages have produced many DS 6 and higher.


Ira

[Kyle Harris]

My guess is that Ran and Tom receive a fair number of messages along the lines of you must check out X course.  I doubt that those messages have produced many DS 6 and higher.


Ira

I'd love to hear from either on that matter. Tom Doak's general policy of seeing anything anyone bothers to recommend makes for an interesting case study.


He missed an easy Doak 6 while building either course at Stonewall because nobody bothered to recommend Schuylkill CC.

[JBovay]

Kyle, thanks for introducing a fascinating topic.

Nowadays, nearly all courses worth playing have been documented somewhere, and the possibility that someone would discover a noteworthy course is diminishing. In my life, I've "discovered" (in a sense) three courses I would rate as a 6. (Others, including as I found out later Ran and Tom, rate two of these courses lower.) By "discovered", I mean that they were not recommended to me by anyone in person, or via a magazine or book or this website. At least one of these three I sought out because I was interested in seeing an example of that particular architect's work. But moving forward, I doubt I will ever discover another 6 serendipitously, just because there is so much information available.

The question about being certain that one has played all the Doak 6s within a two-hour radius is quite relevant for me personally because I've just moved to a new area without a lot of golf tourism. The two-hour radius includes only a few entries in the CG or any other guide. So maybe there is a truly hidden gem lurking just around the corner. I recently found out that a nearby course will be closing soon. If I don't go and see it, it'll become an NLE Schrodinger's course. Most likely an NLE 3, but who knows, maybe an NLE 6.

Nearly six years after I took a trip to Scotland, I still wonder what might have been if I had stopped at an unheralded nine-hole seaside course by the side of the road, in hard-pouring rain. But it was a course I hadn't heard of, and we had non-golf sightseeing on the agenda that day, so we kept driving. In my dreams it lives on as a 7 when it's more likely a 3.

[Sean_A]

My guess is that Ran and Tom receive a fair number of messages along the lines of you must check out X course.  I doubt that those messages have produced many DS 6 and higher.

Ira

I'd love to hear from either on that matter. Tom Doak's general policy of seeing anything anyone bothers to recommend makes for an interesting case study.

Kyle

I agree.  I suspect that in GB&I Tom probably thought he had seen most of everything worth seeing back in the early 80s and some time later realized that there are more keepers out there.

I have been living in GB&I for 21 years and visited often for a further 8 years with the idea of seeing many courses.  I am convinced there are some keepers still out there that I know very little about, let alone the ones I know about, but haven't seen.  This is partly due to me changing my attitudes somewhat about what makes for a keeper.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

My guess is that Ran and Tom receive a fair number of messages along the lines of you must check out X course.  I doubt that those messages have produced many DS 6 and higher.

I'd love to hear from either on that matter. Tom Doak's general policy of seeing anything anyone bothers to recommend makes for an interesting case study.


He missed an easy Doak 6 while building either course at Stonewall because nobody bothered to recommend Schuylkill CC.

Assuming you are right that Schuylkill CC would get a 6 on the Doak Scale from me, there must be more than 1000 courses that good in the world.  Ran has postulated that every links course must be at least a 6 -- I doubt that's right, but there are certainly many that I haven't seen and at least a few that we haven't heard of.  Sean is still discovering them and he's been in the UK a lot longer than I was.


Would they be real contenders for the top 100?  They would have to be at least a 7 on the Doak Scale for that, and some observers would have to think they were an 8.  Is it possible there are some sleepers out there with that kind of potential?  Certainly.  I think they are more likely to be found in the USA or in the UK than in the places I'm traveling for the last volume of my book, and they might need some fixing up to reach those heights, but they might indeed exist.




The fun part, though, is that I have a different take on Schrodinger's list, because I know of several 7's and 8's and potentially 9's that don't exist *yet* except in my head.  [Well, the one in Ireland is half built.]  I currently have routings for five new courses and any one of them might be that good, and I know of two or three others that would certainly be contenders if I can get the capital together to build them.  I would bet real money that I'm going to build more courses of this quality in the next ten years, than others manage to find lying overlooked somewhere.  And I'm probably not the only architect who believes that.  There won't be many courses built in the next ten years, but there will very likely be some more very good ones.

[Ira Fishman]

My guess is that Ran and Tom receive a fair number of messages along the lines of you must check out X course.  I doubt that those messages have produced many DS 6 and higher.

I'd love to hear from either on that matter. Tom Doak's general policy of seeing anything anyone bothers to recommend makes for an interesting case study.


He missed an easy Doak 6 while building either course at Stonewall because nobody bothered to recommend Schuylkill CC.

Assuming you are right that Schuylkill CC would get a 6 on the Doak Scale from me, there must be more than 1000 courses that good in the world.  Ran has postulated that every links course must be at least a 6 -- I doubt that's right, but there are certainly many that I haven't seen and at least a few that we haven't heard of.  Sean is still discovering them and he's been in the UK a lot longer than I was.


Would they be real contenders for the top 100?  They would have to be at least a 7 on the Doak Scale for that, and some observers would have to think they were an 8.  Is it possible there are some sleepers out there with that kind of potential?  Certainly.  I think they are more likely to be found in the USA or in the UK than in the places I'm traveling for the last volume of my book, and they might need some fixing up to reach those heights, but they might indeed exist.




The fun part, though, is that I have a different take on Schrodinger's list, because I know of several 7's and 8's and potentially 9's that don't exist *yet* except in my head.  [Well, the one in Ireland is half built.]  I currently have routings for five new courses and any one of them might be that good, and I know of two or three others that would certainly be contenders if I can get the capital together to build them.  I would bet real money that I'm going to build more courses of this quality in the next ten years, than others manage to find lying overlooked somewhere.  And I'm probably not the only architect who believes that.  There won't be many courses built in the next ten years, but there will very likely be some more very good ones.

Tom, is Sedge Valley project on hold?  I am counting on that for at least a DS7.


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Toms comments in his reply above and his mention of Rans thought raises the question of what it would take for some current 5’s to become 6’s, current 6’s to become 7’s etc etc?
Maybe a difficult question to answer without discussing specific courses and thus potentially given away ideas and ‘secrets’ for potential opportunities ahead.
However, there’s a bunch of quality linksland around the UK coastline that has considerable potential. There may be SSSI’s etc etc hassles but where there’s a will there’s usually a way, especially with the right backers, who may not necessarily be the obvious ones, and quite a few areas of linksland and inland sites for that matter once upon a time had golf courses located on them or even still do.
Atb

[Sean_A]

My guess is that Ran and Tom receive a fair number of messages along the lines of you must check out X course.  I doubt that those messages have produced many DS 6 and higher.

I'd love to hear from either on that matter. Tom Doak's general policy of seeing anything anyone bothers to recommend makes for an interesting case study.

He missed an easy Doak 6 while building either course at Stonewall because nobody bothered to recommend Schuylkill CC.

Assuming you are right that Schuylkill CC would get a 6 on the Doak Scale from me, there must be more than 1000 courses that good in the world.  Ran has postulated that every links course must be at least a 6 -- I doubt that's right, but there are certainly many that I haven't seen and at least a few that we haven't heard of.  Sean is still discovering them and he's been in the UK a lot longer than I was.

Would they be real contenders for the top 100?  They would have to be at least a 7 on the Doak Scale for that, and some observers would have to think they were an 8.  Is it possible there are some sleepers out there with that kind of potential?  Certainly.  I think they are more likely to be found in the USA or in the UK than in the places I'm traveling for the last volume of my book, and they might need some fixing up to reach those heights, but they might indeed exist.

Tom

I am not convinced there are any D7/8s lying in the GB&I weeds....but maybe some 6s.  You might be well impressed with Welshpool...especially since you liked Kington so much. Speaking of which, there is one 2020 Buda spot remaining.  Come have a look.

BTW...I am not discovering anything that folks haven't told me about or I haven't read about somewhere.  I stumbled across a few very cool courses by accident.

Ciao

[Paul Jones]

Can anyone say for certain they've played every Doak 6 within two hours of where they live?

Yes, but I live in Louisiana.

[Peter Pallotta]

If a golf course is an '8' for you but no one else agrees, is it still an '8'?
Maybe it isn't.
Or maybe it's the only '8' that actually means a damn thing.
   

[David Harshbarger]

IIRC Glens Falls CC (Glens Falls, NY, Ross, 1914-1922) wasn't on many people's radar until the last 5 years?  It's now on Ran's list, Tom D. has said it may be in Ross's top 10, Ian A. has said it's a world top 100.


If Glens Falls can fly under the radar, you'd think there could be another Ross/Tilly/Emmet tucked away that's just being awesome year in and year out.


I would think it's also possible in the mass trove 50's-60's courses out there (at least in the US) that there are some gems.  A lot of courses were built on the available land in and around municipalities across the entire country.  Some of that land could be pretty neat.

[Sean_A]

If a golf course is an '8' for you but no one else agrees, is it still an '8'?
Maybe it isn't.
Or maybe it's the only '8' that actually means a damn thing.

Pietro

Of course each person's rating of a course is necessarily subjective and  not wrong or right. However, sometimes expert opinion strikes many well informed and experienced layman as particularly aggrecious. I recall this being the case with Deal among other courses. Happily, opinions can change.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

For me, the interesting discussion on this with something like The Doak Scale is where do the unknowns generally populate?


Is the threshold the Doak 6 to Doak 5 jump? Lower?


What's your favorite Doak 4?

[Sean_A]

For me, the interesting discussion on this with something like The Doak Scale is where do the unknowns generally populate?

Is the threshold the Doak 6 to Doak 5 jump? Lower?

What's your favorite Doak 4?

Kyle

I think you are right.  Its probably the 5 to 6 division which will find most unknowns.

My favourite Doak 4 is Goswick.  Although, I think Doak widely missed the mark.  For me Goswick is closer to 7 than 4....an extremely solid 6 that if I knew better could go to 7.  While Doak is revisiting Goswick, he should take another look at Alnmouth Village.  If all 2s were of this quality every golfer on the planet would be on a permanent high.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,


You're describing, I think, something I call "Garden Variety" good. While not exceptional or unique, the course or the architecture exudes the soul of the game and touches on the visceral instincts of hunter that predominates thoughtful golf. The positive skew of the Doak Scale accounts for this, I believe. I can't comment on them personally but have similar feelings regarding several of the Doak 4-6 entries around Philadelphia. Perhaps I'll make it to Goswick when I am in the UK in April.

But it boils down to one question: "Would I recommend any of them over another equally accessible option of higher rating to a visitor?"

The answer is still likely "no" but the scarcity of time is hardly reason to consider one "great" and not the other.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean, Kyle - re your last few posts:
It's interesting: Tom the person & golfer has expressed his fondness for and appreciation of the 'average English course' - its quality and functionality and charm and sustainability. But at the same time, Tom the architect and writer of books (and creator of the Doak Scale) would, by his own definitions, rate such a course a '3' or a '4'. Subjectively for Tom (or you or me) there are potentially dozens or hundreds of little gems, hidden or otherwise, still to be played and happily experienced for the first time. But objectively for Tom (or you or me), there are probably very very few Doak 7s or 8s that are still under the radar and yet to be discussed. Which is to say: I think the Schrodinger Question-Test only can only really 'apply' to the *individual* (and his own personal/inner life). As soon as we speak or write about that inner experience, and make it public, the 'box' is thrown open and it all becomes 'objective', i.e. it's either an 8 or a 6 or a 9, or it's not; that cat is either dead or it's alive. Nothing is hidden, nothing is left to be 'discovered'.



 

[Sean_A]

Sean,

You're describing, I think, something I call "Garden Variety" good. While not exceptional or unique, the course or the architecture exudes the soul of the game and touches on the visceral instincts of hunter that predominates thoughtful golf. The positive skew of the Doak Scale accounts for this, I believe. I can't comment on them personally but have similar feelings regarding several of the Doak 4-6 entries around Philadelphia. Perhaps I'll make it to Goswick when I am in the UK in April.

But it boils down to one question: "Would I recommend any of them over another equally accessible option of higher rating to a visitor?"

The answer is still likely "no" but the scarcity of time is hardly reason to consider one "great" and not the other.

Kyle

I am one that subscribes to the notion that links is the highest form of the game. Consequently, it should be a rarity to Doak a links less than 5. Let me tell you, Goswick is not even close to that rarity.

As a general East Lothian recommendation, I would say if you are in the area more than 3 days play Goswick.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

You're describing, I think, something I call "Garden Variety" good. While not exceptional or unique, the course or the architecture exudes the soul of the game and touches on the visceral instincts of hunter that predominates thoughtful golf. The positive skew of the Doak Scale accounts for this, I believe. I can't comment on them personally but have similar feelings regarding several of the Doak 4-6 entries around Philadelphia. Perhaps I'll make it to Goswick when I am in the UK in April.

But it boils down to one question: "Would I recommend any of them over another equally accessible option of higher rating to a visitor?"

The answer is still likely "no" but the scarcity of time is hardly reason to consider one "great" and not the other.

Kyle

I am one that subscribes to the notion that links is the highest form of the game. Consequently, it should be a rarity to Doak a links less than 5. Let me tell you, Goswick is not even close to that rarity.

As a general East Lothian recommendation, I would say if you are in the area more than 3 days play Goswick.

Ciao

A Doak 3 is an average golf course so it stands to reason that there are more than a number of links courses that would fit that bill. Just because something hit a Platonic Ideal of a form doesn't mean it is noteworthy. That's kind of the point, innit?

[Ira Fishman]

Schrodinger and Plato in the same thread!
I wonder which side of the debate Bohr and Einstein would take.


Ira

[JMEvensky]

Schrodinger and Plato in the same thread!
I wonder which side of the debate Bohr and Einstein would take.


Ira

NB and AE would probably be wondering why this thread has gone on so long without anyone checking on the cat.

[Colin Macqueen]

Ira,

"Schrodinger and Plato in the same thread!
I wonder which side of the debate Bohr and Einstein would take"


It's all relative I guess!


Cheers Colin

[Sean_A]

Sean,

You're describing, I think, something I call "Garden Variety" good. While not exceptional or unique, the course or the architecture exudes the soul of the game and touches on the visceral instincts of hunter that predominates thoughtful golf. The positive skew of the Doak Scale accounts for this, I believe. I can't comment on them personally but have similar feelings regarding several of the Doak 4-6 entries around Philadelphia. Perhaps I'll make it to Goswick when I am in the UK in April.

But it boils down to one question: "Would I recommend any of them over another equally accessible option of higher rating to a visitor?"

The answer is still likely "no" but the scarcity of time is hardly reason to consider one "great" and not the other.

Kyle

I am one that subscribes to the notion that links is the highest form of the game. Consequently, it should be a rarity to Doak a links less than 5. Let me tell you, Goswick is not even close to that rarity.

As a general East Lothian recommendation, I would say if you are in the area more than 3 days play Goswick.

Ciao

A Doak 3 is an average golf course so it stands to reason that there are more than a number of links courses that would fit that bill. Just because something hit a Platonic Ideal of a form doesn't mean it is noteworthy. That's kind of the point, innit?

Kyle

Links turf is worth at least 1 Doak point if not 2. Plus, as a genre of courses, I generally find links better designed than parklands in no small part because of what the turf allows for. Sandy soil combined with wind generally makes links a far more dynamic and diverse playing experience than is the case for parklands. The issue for raters is one timing these places makes it difficult to fully understand and appreciate this.

Ciao

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