[Kyle Harris]

"Kyle, just because you're growing the beard longer doesn't mean you need to pull on it quite so much..."
-"Quiet, there's relevancy here."

I am loathe to accept the notion that an "average" golfer exists, at least in terms of a meaningful statistical notion from which business or artistic decisions can be based. More interesting to me are the modalities of categories of golfer.

Let's talk about one of those modalities.

Let's talk about the guy whose personal "Top 10" list of golf courses is populated with the only 8 courses they've played. This list is likely topped by some destination golf course or golf courses (Maybe Bandon, Streamsong, or Pinehurst - but Hilton Head, Myrtle, or a one-off like Pebble or somewhere in Scottsdale is FAR more likely) followed by whichever private clubs in their home town they could play somehow.

Maybe the third/fourth/fifth course on the list is that course they play most frequently, and maybe you're having a conversation with them, right now, at the bar at that course.

Which course is next?

And that question is the basis of this concept... is it possible the greatest golf courses, greatest golf holes, greatest maintenance melds are... unknown?

Are they secure from this scrutiny through being obscure?

During the dinner for the Renaissance Cup at Streamsong in 2012, I had the pleasure of hear Tom Doak's love letter of the Himalayan Golf Course. The golf course certainly existed prior to Tom Doak's visit but it hadn't been in our consciousness until Tom's visit. The problem with a place like this is that while it is remote, as a golf course is not obscure. No golf course serves to "hide" the place by drawing attention away nor are there any "hidden gem" type places nearby.

It's always curious to talk to the golfer at the bar who's only played a handful of places because they don't know what they don't know, but what they do know is something you may not know.

What kind of course draws the line? Which ones are they? Let's push the obscure a little bit deep down the barrel, eh?

My first candidate: Diamond Hill in Dover, FL. Home of the best bunkerless 650-yard Par 5 I've ever seen.

[Peter Pallotta]

K -
without any claim to relevancy or insight, here's the first question that popped into my mind:
If I have ever loved only one person in my entire adult life, but that one person with a true and abiding love, do I know less about people than someone who has loved a dozen others? Do I know less about love?
For that fellow you're sitting with in a bar, if he has deeply appreciated and 'known' just one great golf course, does he understand any less than you do what a great golf course actually is, and what it means (experientially)?   
As I say, don't know the relevance, but I don't know the answers either -- I really mean to ask the question.
P 

[Ira Fishman]

I am not sure where I come out on the question, but the reference to Schrodinger is wonderful. 


Ira

[Kyle Harris]

Peter,


In your own way you've really sort of hit on the soul of the question...

For all the lists that attempt to epitomize the great of golf, can we ever actually have broad enough experience to determine what it is that is truly great, or are our own experiences enough to determine what it is for us?


Beyond the consensus of great courses their exists a group in obscurity that engenders the same feelings those greats could. Are they any less worthy? We will never know. But once we do know they're thrown into the whole comparison conversation from which they will never recover.

So they must continue to exist in obscurity as great or exist in consciousness as mediocre.


And somewhere - a group of golfers can never know what they have while they are the only ones to have it.

[Peter Pallotta]

I am not sure where I come out on the question, but the reference to Schrodinger is wonderful. 
Ira

Yes.
I wouldn't know if his cat was dead or alive until I opened the box. Until then, that cat is both dead and alive.


Kyle: yes -- I didn't know (and in some sense still don't know) if the Himalayan Golf Course is a great one or a bad one; only Tom does, and only because he played it.


The fellow you're having drinks with knows-doesn't know about any other golf course in the world in the same way & to the same degree as you do-don't know (assuming neither of you have played the 'any others') -- despite the fact that you're a well-travelled architectural connoisseur and well regarded superintendent. 


I think.

[Kyle Harris]

Peter,


Correct and the case remains that these courses could be great or not great at the same time but the minute they become known they are thrown into the pantheon of comparison.


Could an obscure public course in the middle of XYZ really compare, objectively, to a Winged Foot?

The only thing that changes is your awareness.

[Kalen Braley]

Fantastic question Kyle, and if its considered bear pulling then keep growing it out longer.

Lots to think about and certainly hard to pin down a general opinion. The one part I do absolutely agree with is: "I am loathe to accept the notion that an "average" golfer exists,"

P.S.  I have seen first hand at least one example of Peters post.  My brother married the one and only girl he seriously dated.  They're a couple of years away from 20 years together, and still going strong.

[Peter Pallotta]

"The only thing that changes is your awareness."

Very cool.
Great golf course architecture deserves an appropriately mystical catchphrase.

[Adam Clayman]

The next course will be the one that the player scored lowest, Or, is softest. (Most receptive)

[Tom_Doak]

When I saw your topic it reminded me of Gary Player's top three courses.  When you'd ask him about s good course, he would respond that it was "one of his top three, along with Pine Valley."  He would never name the third course, in order to leave room for the next guy. 😄

[Buck Wolter]

When I saw your topic it reminded me of Gary Player's top three courses.  When you'd ask him about s good course, he would respond that it was "one of his top three, along with Pine Valley."  He would never name the third course, in order to leave room for the next guy. 😄

In the New Links Mag Gary lists Barnbougle Dunes as his Bucket List course. I can  hear him saying "It's the best of it's kind" post-round.

[Thomas Dai]

Not sure about courses but recently a cat was observed on camera out of its box and playing golf and when the camera footage was examined closely the cat in question appeared to be a Cheetah!
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

In the New Links Mag Gary lists Barnbougle Dunes as his Bucket List course. I can  hear him saying "It's the best of it's kind" post-round.

I saw that.  He must not be getting good intel.  He loves flat greens!  He would hate Barnbougle.

[Rick Lane]

Once had the opportunity to spend an hour with Davis Love III.  Asked him if he had one more round to play, where would he play?   His answer seems to fit in this thread:  “A course I have not played yet”. 

[Jim Sherma]

The lack of "blind taste tests" for golf courses makes all rankings questionable. Opinions are valid, anything claiming to be more than that is useless other than as a hook to sell magazines.

[Ira Fishman]

Given that physicists recently developed an experiment to check on the cat without opening the box and given the reach of the Internet and further given the proliferation of adventure travelers (someone much watch Erik Anders Lang), I believe that it is more probable than not there are no hidden, undiscovered great courses. 


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

I think the coy responses like "the next one" or "one I haven't played yet" is just more typical non-answer BS.

Like its so hard to give a straight answer, that as of today it would be course X.  Its not like they're asking which political candidate do you support...but who knows maybe the boys at Pine Valley would get thier knickers in a twist if said person was to say Pebble Beach...

[Kyle Harris]

Can anyone say for certain they've played every Doak 6 within two hours of where they live?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I think the coy responses like "the next one" or "one I haven't played yet" is just more typical non-answer BS.

I could see a situation where someone would want to play a course they'd never played before. I could see how it's a non-answer, but for someone like DLIII, it may be the truest actual answer he could give.

[Tim Martin]

Can anyone say for certain they've played every Doak 6 within two hours of where they live?

This becomes much tougher if you live around metro NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago etc. due to the glut of courses. Get out to the Dakotas, Montana or Utah and it’s way easier to accomplish. It would be an interesting exercise to try and develop a list from my location.

[Adam Clayman]

Can anyone say for certain they've played every Doak 6 within two hours of where they live?

I'll recuse myself, as I can easily say that.

[Peter Pallotta]

Given that physicists recently developed an experiment to check on the cat without opening the box and given the reach of the Internet and further given the proliferation of adventure travelers (someone much watch Erik Anders Lang), I believe that it is more probable than not there are no hidden, undiscovered great courses. 
Ira

Probably all true --except if *you* haven't yet discovered them, and then experienced them as great. Which is to say (in keeping with what I think Kyle is suggesting):
It's always personal.
And there are no 'average people', only unique individuals.
I think.

[Kyle Harris]

Can anyone say for certain they've played every Doak 6 within two hours of where they live?

This becomes much tougher if you live around metro NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago etc. due to the glut of courses. Get out to the Dakotas, Montana or Utah and it’s way easier to accomplish. It would be an interesting exercise to try and develop a list from my location.

Quite the opposite, I think, because Doak 6's aren't obscure in the metro areas. In fact, you're likely sitting at the bar with this guy at a Doak 6 (think Jeffersonville in Philadelphia) or at the very least THAT Doak 6 is the #2 or #3 course on that guys list.

[Kyle Harris]

How high on the Doak scale can a course be unknown?

[Tim Martin]

Can anyone say for certain they've played every Doak 6 within two hours of where they live?

This becomes much tougher if you live around metro NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago etc. due to the glut of courses. Get out to the Dakotas, Montana or Utah and it’s way easier to accomplish. It would be an interesting exercise to try and develop a list from my location.

Quite the opposite, I think, because Doak 6's aren't obscure in the metro areas. In fact, you're likely sitting at the bar with this guy at a Doak 6 (think Jeffersonville in Philadelphia) or at the very least THAT Doak 6 is the #2 or #3 course on that guys list.

They may not be obscure but there are a lot more of them to see making it tougher to accomplish.

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