Do you think you can sell nine holes to members (circa 2020)

[Jim_Kennedy]

As was mentioned, the USGA has no problem w/rating them.                                                    http://theaposition.com/jaystuller/golf/88/the-case-for-12-hole-golf

[Steve Lapper]

Hi Archie...


 I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this question. Why? Because I am about to develop housing over half the property at a semi-private club I own (Fox Hollow, Branchburg, NJ). We expect to see shovels in the ground by mid 2021 and the residual land (no less than 10 holes) and I am wondering what to with it?


My partner, a seasoned operating veteran, is seriously nervous about holding onto and operating a 9 hole course. His belief is than the public isn't ready for a 9 hole private (or public) course in NJ. He's undoubtedly correct when you factor in maintenance and labor costs. As others have said, you can't halve those costs. Perhaps you can shrink that side of the operations about a third, but thats it.


I am a little more optimistic, believing that if we market it correctly (shorter time, package F&B and an attractive rate) we can inevitably find and build a healthy demand for this kind of experience. Of course, we are situated in a fairly wealthy, dense, yet seasonal area of the country. It may a take a year or so, but the age-restricted residential development we are building should provide a reasonable start.


Ultimately, it is the size of the nearby market and the attractiveness and quality of the asset that most determines its success. I look forward to seeing how it goes.

[John Emerson]

These guys are doing fine at Saratoga Golf and Polo, from what I understand:


https://www.saratogagolfpoloclub.org


They have the full club amenities: golf, tennis, swimming.  Golf is 9 holes.  Course dates to 1890's I am told.  They recently did restoration work on the course I am also told.

There are some cracking stand alone 9-hole Clubs and courses around but I would say success in selling it to members depends on a few factors that are not really strictly golf related. Member/player expectations being one of them.

In the right location where playability in decent ground conditions is available close to 52 weeks p/a and with overall low level staffing, sensible course maintenance practices relative to the terrain and a small pavilion Clubhouse with limited food/beverage then I could see a stand alone 9-hole Club/course being a success. Success here not defined as a pure money-making venture but rather as more of a break-even style of long-term existence operation. What the nearby competition is like would also be a key factor.

Our modest 9-hole club fits this description other than it's only open about 30 weeks a year.  Staffing is generally 1 in the house rotating among half a dozen part timers, 1 greenskeeper full-time and a 2 or 3 part timers there, and a pro/house manager (often the 1 in the house).


Members volunteer for larger projects: new roof on clubhouse, new paint, tree removal, new signage, excavating, grading, etc. 


Menu is limited (burgers, wings, sandwiches) and small buffets.  5 beers on tap.  All the liquors: vodka, gin, bourbon, rye, rum and ancient bottle of Galliano. 

Few people set out to join a 9-hole club.  But, a good club atmosphere and a fun course, regular competition, and a spirit of camaraderie make any course a good place to spend one's recreation dollars and hours.  It's not always easy to see that from the outside, though.

This place is so spot on it’s not funny!  Wonderful track that I’d join in a heart beat!  Several template holes, cross bunkers, you name it!  They have a BIG waiting list too.  Kye Goalby did the restoration work there.  Wonderful job

[Peter Flory]

I wonder if the reversible course idea might have even more benefit for a 9 hole footprint. 

[Thomas Dai]

I wonder if the reversible course idea might have even more benefit for a 9 hole footprint.

..... just like MacKenzie envisaged for El Boqueron in Argentina!
atb


See - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38874.150.html

[John Emerson]

Hi Archie...


 I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this question. Why? Because I am about to develop housing over half the property at a semi-private club I own (Fox Hollow, Branchburg, NJ). We expect to see shovels in the ground by mid 2021 and the residual land (no less than 10 holes) and I am wondering what to with it?


My partner, a seasoned operating veteran, is seriously nervous about holding onto and operating a 9 hole course. His belief is than the public isn't ready for a 9 hole private (or public) course in NJ. He's undoubtedly correct when you factor in maintenance and labor costs. As others have said, you can't halve those costs. Perhaps you can shrink that side of the operations about a third, but thats it.


I am a little more optimistic, believing that if we market it correctly (shorter time, package F&B and an attractive rate) we can inevitably find and build a healthy demand for this kind of experience. Of course, we are situated in a fairly wealthy, dense, yet seasonal area of the country. It may a take a year or so, but the age-restricted residential development we are building should provide a reasonable start.


Ultimately, it is the size of the nearby market and the attractiveness and quality of the asset that most determines its success. I look forward to seeing how it goes.

If market was an issue tell Sweetens Cove, Bandon dunes, streamsong, etc etc etc  they need to move!  Market is not important! Quality of golf holes is priority 1.  If the course is crap cutting it to 9 won’t make it less crappy. 

[archie_struthers]

 


John I can assure you if we redo it it won't be crap. But there's only enough space to do 9,10 or 12 holes.


The issue is whether you can justify the expense of doing it!

[Chris Mavros]

I used to belong to one, Phoenixville CC, designed by Hugh Wilson.  Lots of cool quirk and never tired of playing it.  Based on my experience, nine-holes face a bit more pressure for each hole to be strong than with 18 holes, where a weak hole or two can hide more or less. 


But if the holes are strong and remain interesting after time, there are a lot of benefits to them although I agree membership size is a huge factor to making it work. 

[Steve Lapper]

Hi Archie...


 I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this question. Why? Because I am about to develop housing over half the property at a semi-private club I own (Fox Hollow, Branchburg, NJ). We expect to see shovels in the ground by mid 2021 and the residual land (no less than 10 holes) and I am wondering what to with it?


My partner, a seasoned operating veteran, is seriously nervous about holding onto and operating a 9 hole course. His belief is than the public isn't ready for a 9 hole private (or public) course in NJ. He's undoubtedly correct when you factor in maintenance and labor costs. As others have said, you can't halve those costs. Perhaps you can shrink that side of the operations about a third, but thats it.


I am a little more optimistic, believing that if we market it correctly (shorter time, package F&B and an attractive rate) we can inevitably find and build a healthy demand for this kind of experience. Of course, we are situated in a fairly wealthy, dense, yet seasonal area of the country. It may a take a year or so, but the age-restricted residential development we are building should provide a reasonable start.


Ultimately, it is the size of the nearby market and the attractiveness and quality of the asset that most determines its success. I look forward to seeing how it goes.

If market was an issue tell Sweetens Cove, Bandon dunes, streamsong, etc etc etc  they need to move!  Market is not important! Quality of golf holes is priority 1.  If the course is crap cutting it to 9 won’t make it less crappy.

John,


  Perhaps you neglected to read closely, or understand, what I was saying. Have you ever owned or developed any courses?


  Size of market is but one of needed determinants of success for a STAND-ALONE 9-holer.


   Only Sweetens Cove (which I've yet to play) isn't blessed by an immediately large market (although it's far closer to Chattanooga than we are to NYC). Streamsong, Bandon, and even the 9-holer planned for Cabot, CA. are all embedded at a destination golf course that draws it's customers from resort guests. I will wager you any amount that no one thinks building a 9-holer first, then several 18s, makes economic sense whatsoever.


  The "attractiveness and quality of the asset" along with the "size of market" determines it's success. Fox Hollow  will never be a Plainfield or Bayonne, but it does reside in a golf-hungry market and should we elect to have it survive as a 9 or 10 hole course, we'll make it the very best we can.

[archie_struthers]

 


Interesting conundrum this remains. Keep thinking that the practice area might put this over the hump and justify the expense of rebuilding the old golf course from a short short 18 replete with lots of par threes and no par fours over 350 yards. The most interesting element is that the F&B operation is really good with an exceptional small clubhouse that is quite striking. It literally begs you to bring the golf course up to speed to match it. But again, 18 holes won't fit or work IMHO


It's almost as if the golf course is an amenity to the food and beverage business which is well developed and profitable. Certainly the adverse of the norm but perfectly befuddling to a contrarian like me.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Hi Archie...


 I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this question. Why? Because I am about to develop housing over half the property at a semi-private club I own (Fox Hollow, Branchburg, NJ). We expect to see shovels in the ground by mid 2021 and the residual land (no less than 10 holes) and I am wondering what to with it?


My partner, a seasoned operating veteran, is seriously nervous about holding onto and operating a 9 hole course. His belief is than the public isn't ready for a 9 hole private (or public) course in NJ. He's undoubtedly correct when you factor in maintenance and labor costs. As others have said, you can't halve those costs. Perhaps you can shrink that side of the operations about a third, but thats it.


I am a little more optimistic, believing that if we market it correctly (shorter time, package F&B and an attractive rate) we can inevitably find and build a healthy demand for this kind of experience. Of course, we are situated in a fairly wealthy, dense, yet seasonal area of the country. It may a take a year or so, but the age-restricted residential development we are building should provide a reasonable start.


Ultimately, it is the size of the nearby market and the attractiveness and quality of the asset that most determines its success. I look forward to seeing how it goes.

If market was an issue tell Sweetens Cove, Bandon dunes, streamsong, etc etc etc  they need to move!  Market is not important! Quality of golf holes is priority 1.  If the course is crap cutting it to 9 won’t make it less crappy.

John,


  Perhaps you neglected to read closely, or understand, what I was saying. Have you ever owned or developed any courses?


  Size of market is but one of needed determinants of success for a STAND-ALONE 9-holer.


   Only Sweetens Cove (which I've yet to play) isn't blessed by an immediately large market (although it's far closer to Chattanooga than we are to NYC). Streamsong, Bandon, and even the 9-holer planned for Cabot, CA. are all embedded at a destination golf course that draws it's customers from resort guests. I will wager you any amount that no one thinks building a 9-holer first, then several 18s, makes economic sense whatsoever.


  The "attractiveness and quality of the asset" along with the "size of market" determines it's success. Fox Hollow  will never be a Plainfield or Bayonne, but it does reside in a golf-hungry market and should we elect to have it survive as a 9 or 10 hole course, we'll make it the very best we can.

I understand your post fully Steve. Financial focus must over-ride. The people that think about quality golf architecture is 1%. I think we are moving toward a time when 12 holes might be acceptable to a certain market but I am not sure how near we are to that point at the moment. We are still in an 18 hole world and whilst this board (and myself) won't agree with the following statement somebody once said to me there is a degree of sense in it....The worst 18 hole course in the world is always better than best 9 hole course...
9 holers work as add ons to existing.
9 holers work in remote areas or where there are limited options.
9 holers work with low staffing perhaps even as a one man band.
Financially you only take half the money v Costs of about three quarters. If you have 18 holes already a lot of the costs are paid so it is a different equation.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Archie

12 holes would hit a sweet spot especially if you can create two loops from the house. That's a tough ask, but possible sometimes.

Although, truth be told, my sweetest spot is 14 holes!  9 and 5 hole loops from the house would awesome.

Ciao

Bingo Sean. You need the returning loops somewhat balanced or it’s an operational nightmare.


Archie,


I think you are probably most likely to make a profit if there is also an additional revenue stream that can opporated simultaneous is To the small format golf. Be it a big range, Par3 course or putting course now you can sell 2 things at once.

[Tom_Doak]

I think you are probably most likely to make a profit if there is also an additional revenue stream that can opporated simultaneous is To the small format golf. Be it a big range, Par3 course or putting course now you can sell 2 things at once.

I am not aware of anyone that has ever made money operating a putting course.  Most that I know of are free.  The Ladies Putting Course at St. Andrews charges a token fee, but maintaining a two-acre green must eat up pretty much all of the revenues.

[Steve Lapper]

Jaeger Kovich:

"Bingo Sean. You need the returning loops somewhat balanced or it’s an operational nightmare".


Not true at all...It's hardly an operational nightmare if you have a road or path leading back from the last hole.  We've already laid out a plan that achieves  just that.

[Jim Moeller]

This topic is timely for me because I've spent the last 2-3 weeks inquiring about memberships at 9 hole courses. I live about 30 miles southwest of Boston, and oddly there are few public options. I don't have the time to drive 45 minutes to a decent course, only to take 5 1/2 hours for 18 holes. So as an alternative, I've been looking for a laid back, affordable private option. I've found a number of 9 hole private tracks near me such as Sharon CC (Stiles), Milton-Hoosic Club (Willie Park Jr), Norfolk GC, Foxborough (Cornish) and others.


The frontrunner has a number of features that would seem to give folks a good value and keep their interest. For example, it's a golden age layout of 11 holes where the 9th and 10th holes are different (if you're playing 18, your back 9 is a repeat of 1 through 8 and then a separate 18th hole), a secret hole that's used for special events, and a few other holes that play very differently depending upon if it's your front 9 or back 9. The property also has a full driving range and a practice hole with a large green, bunker and chipping area to practice 40-50 yard shots. The membership is limited to about 200 and there are no tee times. From talking to three members, there is almost never a wait and the camaraderie of being paired with new folks is welcomed by the membership. There's also a brand new clubhouse that everyone is excited about.


I don't know if other 9 hole courses offer an interesting routing, full practice facility and no wait times, but that's a recipe that attracted me.

[Sean_A]

Jaeger Kovich:

Bingo Sean. You need the returning loops somewhat balanced or it’s an operational nightmare.

Not true...It's not an operational nightmare if you have a road or path leading back from the last hole.  We've already laid out a plan that achieves  just that.

For private courses and increasingly for public courses it's hard to fathom why equal size loops from the house is ideal. IMO the goal should be to create a stark difference. This offers a better variety of time commitment. But then I have been big on boozers loops in design since I started playing. Juniors have to be saavy you know. Creative use of the house is worth a bit of a trade off in terms of quality of the design. An archie who can't create an interesting hole (in most cases) out of less than ideal land to better use the house should be sacked. 😎

Ciao

[Rob_Waldron]

Archie


My concern with 9-hole courses has always been the economics and logistics. I believe the 27-hole or 36-hole model made the most sense economically.


Rob

[Chris Wegner]

Having spent 2 seasons as Head Professional at a nine hole facility where we exceeded 40k rounds each year success is possible but difficult. I had the good fortune to be in a public golf starved market (Jersey City NJ) at a very well designed interesting golf course (Skyway Golf Course)


Jaeger and I can debate the merits of the 8th hole, but we found an overwhelming majority of golfers enjoyed the course but found only 9 holes to be the perfect amount of golf.


Steve, I am familiar with Fox Hollow having grown up in Central New Jersey and would believe if marketed and done correctly you could have great success. The elimination of 18 holes at nearby Royce Brook and the on/off again sale of Raritan Valley both play into how easy/difficult your success will be.


Not sure of the financials or business success of two other Central Jersey 9 hole facilities....Tara Greens in Somerset and Scotch Hills in Scotch Plains. Both to my knowledge have had some lasting success filling a golf niche. Fox Hollow is a much better golf course than either of those.

[V. Kmetz]

We have 12 of them in Litchfield County Ct, which is roughly 40 miles from N to S and 25 miles from E to W w/a population of around 182,000 people. Half are private, half aren't. There are six 18 hole courses, 3 private & 3 public. 

The private courses sustain themselves well, as do most of the public courses, even though the season is a maximum of 7 1/2 months, with roughly four of them being 'prime'.

I know most of these Jim (everybody) and while they, as a group, have some endearing simple virtues, many of the 9-holers look like ghost towns to me on the handful of days I drive by or through in season, less and less populated over the course of 30 years. I often think: "How is that place still alive?" I'm appreciative, as I love all those hole in the wall antique types, but I'm always thinking they could be gone the next time I drive by.


BTW: Is the private 9-hole group comprised of:


1. Waramaug
2. Hotchkiss
3. Washington
4. Candlewood Lake
5. ________________?
6. (Is Cannan CC private)?

[Duncan Cheslett]

I’ve just heard that Didsbury GC in south Manchester has sold off a chunk of their course - currently home to five holes - for housing development.


The land in question is detached from the rest of the course on the far side of the M60 motorway which was built through the previous MacKenzie remodel in the 1970s. Peter Alliss and Dave Thomas reconfigured the layout and built a few new holes but it has never been completely satisfactory.


Word is that the club intends consolidating to 9 or 12 holes and retaining their excellent practice facilities.


It will be very interesting to see if they manage to retain members in what is an extremely competitive local market. There are a dozen or more clubs within five miles.


I can see many clubs being forced to take similar measures in the face of increasing financial pressures. The appallingly wet winter we are currently experiencing will not have helped matters. Year-round golf is beginning to look like a thing of the past.


Even links courses have been closed because of waterlogging this winter. The prognosis for clay based inland courses is dismal.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Archie,


Suburban Philadelphia has 3 older 9 hole private clubs that seem to be doing ok. Have you taken a look at them- Merchantville, Phoenixville and Flourtown?

[Anthony Butler]

Archie,


Suburban Philadelphia has 3 older 9 hole private clubs that seem to be doing ok. Have you taken a look at them- Merchantville, Phoenixville and Flourtown?

PCC also has the 9 hole St. Martins course at their City location.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Cricket's 9 hole course  is part of the club. It's not a free standing private 9 hole course/club. The ones that I mentioned in the Philly area are private and free standing. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

We have 12 of them in Litchfield County Ct, which is roughly 40 miles from N to S and 25 miles from E to W w/a population of around 182,000 people. Half are private, half aren't. There are six 18 hole courses, 3 private & 3 public. 

The private courses sustain themselves well, as do most of the public courses, even though the season is a maximum of 7 1/2 months, with roughly four of them being 'prime'.

I know most of these Jim (everybody) and while they, as a group, have some endearing simple virtues, many of the 9-holers look like ghost towns to me on the handful of days I drive by or through in season, less and less populated over the course of 30 years. I often think: "How is that place still alive?" I'm appreciative, as I love all those hole in the wall antique types, but I'm always thinking they could be gone the next time I drive by.


BTW: Is the private 9-hole group comprised of:


1. Waramaug
2. Hotchkiss
3. Washington
4. Candlewood Lake
5. ________________?
6. (Is Cannan CC private)?

Waramaug, Washington, Highfield, Sharon, Norfolk, Litchfield, Candlewood Lake..........I believe the 'youngster' in this bunch is Highfield, it's only 67 years old, a couple are over the century mark.................One of these clubs is always in fabulous shape and it never has more than 100 or so members. Any operating deficits are remedied at the season ending dinner/meeting..... Another was experiencing some money woes, but the members were asked to kick in to retire the large debt and take a tax break in lieu of any repayment. I believe they had that all settled in a couple of weeks......It's a pretty unique area, strong family element among this bunch. If you were to ask any of the members at these clubs "how's this place alive", they'd just smile back at you. 

[jeffwarne]

I'm guessing if you were able to sell it, you'd have a quality group of people you'd enjoy playing golf with.
9 holes and the lack of many other amenities...are a great filter