Great holes where a creek/ditch crosses in the driving zone?

[Thomas Dai]

Crossing ditches are a real pain for shorter hitters who have to lay-up with less than a Driver from the tee but then can’t get to the green in what would be their usual regulation number of shots for a hole of such length.
But then again the thread title highlighted “great holes” and it would be difficult to describe a hole such as this as ‘great’.
Atb

[Kalen Braley]

I think that's why diagonal carries work so much better, like the 6th at Stonewall above, because it seems more of a "how much and where" dare kind of question vs an "all or nothing" binary dilemma.

[Michael Felton]

I think that's why diagonal carries work so much better, like the 6th at Stonewall above, because it seems more of a "how much and where" dare kind of question vs an "all or nothing" binary dilemma.

Agree entirely. I think ideally the second shot would get progressively easier the closer to the water you are. Thus rewarding the braver line and penalizing the guy who plays overly safe.

[Mike_Trenham]

DuPont County Club, Wilmington, DE A. Tull renovated by L. George


#9 - Par 5 creek is a very challenging carry but may cause the longest players to club down.


#18 - Par 4 mid length dogleg left with a diagonal creek.  Not sure how I feel about this hole, as if you can carry the creek it’s a drive and pitch if you can’t it plays pretty long.  I know this is a hollow argument but I might like it better as #15 than as #18 being I like to play matches.

[Mark Smolens]

Third hole at Flossmoor has a ditch that is capable of being carried, at least with a decent tailwind. . .

[Daryl David]

15th at Tumble Creek. Par 5. Diagonal creek crossing the driving area. Long hitters favor the right half where the carry ranges from 220 to 240 depending on tee. If you make it over, you have a crack at getting on in two. Those that layup, go down left staying short of the creek with less than driver. They end up hitting hybrid, three wood and then wedge to the green.  Great hole?  Not really, but the psychological effect on players is interesting. It is amazing how many players (the majority) attempt the carry and end up making doubles or worse and how the few that layup end up making pars and birdies.  It seems not many players want to grab a hybrid and step up onto the tee of a par 5 even it it is the right play.

[mike_malone]

Before Mayday gets into the discussion the 8th at Rolling Green comes to mind.  Creek angled at just the right degree to challenge. Like 14 at Chester Valley. Both can be crossed on a good line by big hitters. But still in range if an oldster gets a hold of one.

Recent in depth analysis of historical aerials by our consultants Riley Johns and Keith Rhebb has opened my eyes to the need for significant work on this hole that would raise its level up another notch.
They identified that the creek that comes in from the right should be closer to the green. This would change the strategy in a favorable way.
They also identified that the green was smaller and in a “guitar pick” formation and the right green side bunker was closer to centerline.
We already knew the left green side bunker isn’t original.


After our recent tree removal to the right of the present 8 tee we can now have a potential discussion of moving the tees to the right ( my idea not R/K). The original forward tee was right.
I also think that we should open up the creek that runs along the left side of the hole particularly if tees move right.


It’s my interpretation of Flynn that he preferred that practically no one should carry the creek. The challenge was laying up. That’s much more interesting.


So I see great potential for 8 to become a much greater hole.

[Mike Schott]

My first thought was the 2nd and 3rd holes at Belvedere. It's been some time since I've played there but I remember the creek being in play on both for better players.

[Cob Carlson]

Adam T...nice call on the second at Keney Park. That is one wild hole on a great muni. Speaking of other muni's in Connecticut, the 13th hole on the Black Course at Fairchild Wheeler Park is a long par 4 with a ditch/stream running diagonally right to left in the carry area. You drive from an extremely elevated tee down low to the stream. A real cool look from the tee. If you want to carry the stream, you must hit it into the right 1/3 of the fairway or into the right rough.  A safe lay up requires you to hit in into the left 1/2 of the fairway or into the left rough. Your second shot is uphill into an amphitheater green. Very tough and challenging hole.

[David Wuthrich]

#18 at Wolf Point!  Depends on where you play your tee shot.

[JBovay]

The best I've played was the first hole at Tom Doak's now-dormant Aetna Springs. 360 yards from an elevated tee, the fairway was divided into three distinct sections (short left, middle right, long left) by a burn that cut across the fairway diagonally twice. This burn entered the fairway on the right side about 200 yards from the tee; players who could carry the ball 220 could either play to the left, where the fairway ran out at about 260, or to the right, where it ran out at 280. Because the front-right side of the green was protected by the burn and a tree (as at the 10th at Carnoustie), playing left ensured a safer angle of approach; the tradeoff was that in order to ensure you remained short of the burn, a prudent layup shot to the left would leave an approach of about 140, whereas you could have an approach of perhaps 80–100 by playing to the right. A third option for extremely long hitters (who probably visited Aetna Springs extremely rarely) would have been to attempt to carry the burn twice from the tee, requiring a carry of 290–300. Under firm summer conditions, the hole could have been drivable.

Doak repeated the same themes again at the par-5 8th. Here's hoping that Aetna is truly just dormant and not forever gone.

I also thought about nominating the 2nd at Keney Park, but the extreme left-to-right shot required to carry the creek takes the hole down a notch for me.

[Tim Martin]

2 Shennecossett demands a fairly benign carry over a ditch and then requires the approach to fly a ditch/railroad tracks. Not a long hole but thought provoking.

[David Bowen]

Oak Hill East, #13, par 5, 594 yards.  Used to be considered an unreachable par 5, predominantly because of a forced layup short of the creek, though that has gone by the wayside.  In tournaments players tend to lay up with an iron or hybrid.  Most, if not all, tour players can now clear it, but still layup since the creek not only crosses the fairway, but also works down the sides of the hole making a hook or slice problematic.  Because most will never try to reach the green in two, the lay up off the tee becomes largely routine.  Pretty to look at, has the Hill of Fame, though not a strategic wonder.