Great holes where a creek/ditch crosses in the driving zone?

[MCirba]

...necessitating either a layup or bold carry attempt.


Are there any great ones?  If so, what are the characteristics that make them appealing, fun, or strategically interesting?

[Greg Smith]

14th at Muirfield Village, maybe?  In the old days I'd say no -- but in today's bomb-it world, perhaps blowing it over the creek to that left-hand spit of fairway is a risk these crazy youngsters would consider.

For my part, I'd still call that foolish, even if I could carry it 300.

The appealing part of such a shot I guess is that it would require much more than crushing it long distance to a wide fairway.  You'd have to have the ability to crush it long distance, on a dime.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Before Mayday gets into the discussion the 8th at Rolling Green comes to mind.  Creek angled at just the right degree to challenge. Like 14 at Chester Valley. Both can be crossed on a good line by big hitters. But still in range if an oldster gets a hold of one.

[BCrosby]

Peachtree GC no. 12
Athens CC no. 1

[Tal Oz]

The short par 4 7th at Rustic Canyon executes this well, albeit far from my favorite hole on the course. The dry barranca serves as a diagonal hazard where if you're going to clear it on your drive you need 230+ carry and every yard farther left requires more carry. Depending on the days pin location your driving line can change as much as 80 yards.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.305856,-118.8645756,339m/data=!3m1!1e3

[Mike_Trenham]

#6 at Stonewall - Elverson PA - Tom Doak. 


Creek cuts through the landing zone, shorter carry on the left but much more difficult approach.

[MCirba]

Some really good ones, thanks all. 


Any where the hole dogleg just after the creek/ditch?

[Tim Martin]

Some really good ones, thanks all. 


Any where the hole dogleg just after the creek/ditch?

Lancaster # 4 -“Double Creek”

[archie_struthers]

 


How about that first tee shot at one Cobbs Creek , its all about the angles


or will be !

[Peter Pallotta]

Some really good ones, thanks all. 

Any where the hole dogleg just after the creek/ditch?

In one sense, not a "great hole". But:

Little old Victoria East, designed by little known Rene Muylaert.
The 2nd hole, after a very gentle Par 5 opener. Dogleg right, mid-length Par 4.

Best angle into the green is from the left side, but a straight tee shot to that side quickly runs out of room/into the woods.
The ditch/creek crosses the driving zone at about 235 yards -- but, in a lovely little nuance, the fairway starts sloping towards the creek at about 220 yards, and a well struck shot landing there will trundle down right into the creek (when the course is playing dry, as if often does).

So your choice is to try to hit a driver with a fade and carry it about 240 over the creek, leaving yourself about an 8 or 9 iron into the green; or to hit a fairway wood or hybrid or long iron fairly straight but well short, to 215 yards, but then leaving yourself a 5 iron in. Those numbers change a bit because for part of the year the wind is at your back, and for the other part it is in your face.

No one here as ever heard of Vic East; few even in town ever remark about the 2nd hole there. I don't know if it's a "great hole", but it's a simple and very effective one: a terrific 2nd on a very modest public course built on a dull, flattish farmer's field in the late 60s.

But I dare say, you transplant it to a recognized *great course*, in the US or the UK, and it would hold its own.     
   

[herrstein]

Diagonals make this work. As the ball goes further and further, it's harder and harder to keep it relevant. The 4th at Black Creek is an example. When designed (1998) it was a beast. We had to add a new tee to make it mean something.

[Bill Gayne]

The 17th at Carnoustie with the burn that crosses twice is a hole with great strategy pretty much regardless of the skill level of the player. What a finish at Carnoustie with 16, 17, and 18! The burn cuts across 18 but it's far enough down that it's an issue for the second shot (unless of course you're a pro playing down wind). Unfortunately by the time i get to 16, 17, and 18 I'm worn out from the fight.

[Tom Fussell]

I second the 6th at Stonewall.  I just played it this fall, and my tee shot landed in said creek.  Distance measuring devices are not allowed there, and my caddy was 250 yards away in the fairway watching as my ball splashed down.  He was not the best at providing any local knowledge, and I'm not sure he was even a golfer.   Also, I'm still longing for my gap wedge that went MIA that day!

#6 at Stonewall - Elverson PA - Tom Doak. 


Creek cuts through the landing zone, shorter carry on the left but much more difficult approach.

[mark chalfant]

Schuyler Meadows 7th:   A tilting fairway is divided by a slashing creek.  A great par four on an Emmet course overflowing with excellent holes.




Mahopac 17th is good:  a shallow creek cuts across the wide landing area. the next shot is either a short or long iron uphill to a nicely sited green.

[Drew Groeger]

Isn't this the essence of the original Leven hole template at Lundin Links?

[Peter Flory]

Some really good ones, thanks all. 

Any where the hole dogleg just after the creek/ditch?

The one that comes to my mind is #13 at Baltusrol Lower. 

[Cob Carlson]

The 1st hole at The Orchards in South Hadley, MA. Most players lay up with a hybrid or 5 wood. Bombers face serious risk/reward. A very difficult par four opening hole with a wild green. Most unusual for Donald Ross to challenge you like this so early in a round.

[Sean_A]

16 North Berwick... not much of an angle...old fashion can you make the carry or not...mind you the green helps a bit to make the hole great 😎

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Bill beat me to the selection of the Barry Burn on the 17th at Carnoustie and it's effects over a pretty big area and on more than one hole. It's also much wider than it appears on TV/photos too.


Here's another ..... the 13th at Cruden Bay ...... with all it's curls it effects a much larger area than it seems too.


atb

[Sean_A]

Good call on Cruden Bay 13.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

The 1st hole at The Orchards in South Hadley, MA. Most players lay up with a hybrid or 5 wood. Bombers face serious risk/reward. A very difficult par four opening hole with a wild green. Most unusual for Donald Ross to challenge you like this so early in a round.

Cob-That creek comes into play on a handful of holes and and is a feature that Ross used expertly to require choices by the player.

[Kyle Harris]

#12 at Huntingdon Valley is the archetype for greatness in this category.


#3 at Gulph Mills.

[Kyle Harris]

And Mike,


The 9th at Five Ponds sort of fits your category but the dogleg starts just before the creek.


It's a vexing tee shot all the same and remains so today. It was one of the shots that always made me think during High School matches.

[Tom_Doak]

#6 at Stonewall - Elverson PA - Tom Doak. 


Creek cuts through the landing zone, shorter carry on the left but much more difficult approach.

That's one of my best holes. 


It's forgotten now, but the Stonewall founders asked Jay Sigel to consult on the design with me, and that's the hole where Jay had the most influence.  Tom Fazio had originally laid out a short par-5 with the tee further back and left, so you couldn't carry the creek.", and Jay volunteered that he thought it was bad to build a par-5 with a lay-up tee shot for long hotters.  So, I moved the tee well forward to create the present hole. 


When I asked Jay how far he thought the carry should be for a very good player in 1992, he said 245 yards - but since the hole is downhill and downwind, I made it 265 and didn't tell him. 😉


The reason you don't see more good holes like this is because you need an elevated tee to see the creek clearly from 250 yards away.  I love the 16th hole at North Betwick, but it's very difficult to get a sense of whether you can make the carry, and it's annoying not to be sure whether your tee shot has stopped short of it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

16 Troon.