Doonbeg

[Tim_Weiman]

bakerg:

I recently ran into an American member of Doonbeg who indicated he received notice from the club of plans for course alterations, possibly to include changes to the greens on about five holes (he didn't specify which holes).

This gentleman indicated the work would be done by Greg Norman's firm. When I asked about whether he heard about the rumors of Tom Fazio doing the work, he said "no".

My next trip to Ireland will probably be in January and maybe I'll go have a look at the work being done. Let's hope the decidedly mixed reviews of Doonbeg thus far will become more favorable based on the work to be done.

I still remember the man from Limerick, an 18 handicapper, who told me "I'll play Doonbeg.......once". That's the problem they need to overcome.

[JohnV]

I still remember the man from Limerick, an 18 handicapper, who told me "I'll play Doonbeg.......once". That's the problem they need to overcome.

I remember a man in Dornoch telling me the same thing about Skibo Castle back in 1995.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
Much of my disappointment with PGA West Norman was in fact based off of all of the positive things I had heard about Sugarloaf and Wente. Matter of fact, I still fel hehas got really good work in him, as in, I'm giving him lots of room.

I have to ask, am I the only one that doesn't see a problem with making tweaks here and there on a course that seems to be as extreme as the sand dunes at Doonbeg that are edible for golf? However, utilzing another architect for these changes other then Greg Norman is ridiculous.

All's we are saying is give Shark a chance..........

(replacing him with Fazio is just way beyond the realms of good taste. Almost to the point you would think Fazio had it in for the Shark as much as I supposedly have it in for him.)

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy:

In fairness, we know little about any possible Fazio involvement at Doonbeg other than (a) rumors and (b) a reliable source who tells me he was there the day Fazio toured the course.

But, it wouldn't entirely surprise me if the Landmark folks did at least give some thought to Fazio. On what basis, you ask? Two possible factors:

a) appeal in the all important American market

b) reputation for "playability"

I do think the Norman team gave too much weight to better players when they designed the course and not enough to the Limerick gentleman I mentioned above. Perhaps the Landmark folks have heard the same feedback as I've heard while in Ireland and recognize they need to address it. Fazio may have been considered for fulfilling such an assignment.

We'll just have to wait and see how this story unfolds.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Your answer shows a few things.

First, no architect -- NONE -- hits home runs with all of their designs. I don't see what the issue is with tweaking a course provided it doesn't become completely turned inside-out as some more prominent ones have (hint: Augusta National).  

The design at PGA West is simply a major letdown. It seeks to accomplish sooooooooooo much but really fails to do accomplish much of anything. I believe his work at other courses have been much better -- most notably Doonbeg. Clearly, given what Tim has posted on the possible changes it will be uncertain if what is changed really needs to be changed. Sometimes the things people focus on are the things that need to be left alone and vice versa.

What I like about Norman is that he's not afraid to take chances with his designs. Too much of what you see from "name" designers is really tame stuff that leaves little for the golfer to want to return time after time. Doonbeg is clearly a major breakout design for the Shark and it really gives you a number of holes you won't soon forget.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
If you want to see taking some chances, go to Ran's profile of the Moonah Course by Bob Harrison and see what I would consider the Shark's best work to date.

Clearly the work that gets lambasted the most by many here is work that is being done out of the office that is located in Florida. As I have stated in the past, I think its sets a horrible preceedence for golf and its inexcusable. As you noticed and probably heard at PGA West, the Norman course is the least favorite of them all, and that's even over the Vanilla Tom Dumkopf course that's there also. (As told to me by KSL personnel)

[Tim_Weiman]

Too Bad,

Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Golf in Ireland - and Scotland - was incredibly enjoyable years ago when there were far fewer amenities than there are today in either market. The focus was on playing golf and meeting people who loved the game - what more do you need?

The trouble with Americanizing everything is that it defeats the very purpose of traveling far from home. Why would anyone want playing in the UK & Ireland to be like playing in the States? Must golf become like MacDonalds?

Americans should step up to the plate and acknowledge that our "country club for a day" mentality - all that emphasis on "service", doesn't serve the long term interests of the game. It adds frivolous things we don't need and only serves to make the game more expensive. At the very least, we shouldn’t go exporting this nonsense to parts of the golf world that years ago were far more advanced than we are today.

[TOO BAD]

Dear Tim,

I certainly undersand your points and to a certain extent I agree. How ever the simple point I am making, without service, poor bar sevice = poor quality of Pints of Guinness, poor food = food poison, poor golf course condition = not very impressive to any golfer.
Therefore if you increase the awareness of sevices and of course the price of a green fee will rise, but you will be playing golf on conditioned golf course, which makes sense to all golfers in the golfing world. Playing good golf on a well maintained golf course is the best feeling in the world.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Too Bad:

You've raised two points: pints of Guinness and golf course conditioning. Let me address the latter first.

My fear is that you are trying to apply American parkland conditioning standards to links golf. I'd refer you to Paul Daley's comments in "Links Golf" about the dangers of "cross polonization" of architectural and maintenance ideas.

In short, it shouldn't be done. Links golf shouldn't attempt to emulate American parkland golf. It is different and should be kept that way.

As for the Guinness, I've never heard of anyone having that problem. Seems to me like they know quite well how to handle Guinness over there.

[Tim_Weiman]

Too Bad:

I'm not sure what a nineteenth hole pundit is, but I was referring to your comment about "playing golf on a well maintained golf course is the best feeling in the world".

Over many years and trips to Ireland I have only rarely experienced any golf course that wasn't well maintained. About the only such experience came about two years ago on the greens at Dooks. Other than that, I would have to go back to the early days of the Cashen which was notorious for having one of the worst grow in ever.

My last trip was in August when most of Ballybunion was nice and brown with just a hint of green, firm and fast, almost perfect links conditions. It is tough to find anything that nice on our side of the pond.

[ronkiawah]

For several months, we’ve been aware of discussions within the GolfClubAtlas chat room concerning a rumor that Tom Fazio has been, or will be, tapped to make design changes at Doonbeg Golf Club. We have not responded to the discussions as we respect the right of people to freely express their thoughts about course design, whether or not we agree with them and whether or not they are factual. And, quite frankly, we felt the Fazio rumors would quickly cease as they are just that…rumors.

It now appears that this rumor…as can be their nature…is not going away. Therefore, we’d like to address the issue and dispel any misconceptions about the design of Doonbeg Golf Course.

Tom Fazio has not been contacted nor contracted to make any design changes, large or small, to Doonbeg. Tom did tour the course in September when he was in Ireland working at Waterville. Tom came to Doonbeg for an hour or so as a guest of Buddy Darby, CEO of Kiawah Development Partners (“KDP”), the parent company of Doonbeg Golf Club and developer of Kiawah Island in South Carolina. As a 25-year personal friend of KDP’s partners (Fazio designed two courses at Kiawah), Tom kindly offered his impressions of the course; however, he and his firm are not being used…and were never planned to be used…to make any design changes whatsoever.  We are proud of the course and wanted to show it off to Tom.

That being said, Doonbeg Golf Club will be closing from October 31, 2003, until March 8, 2004, as part of our winter enhancement program. This closure will allow our young course to rest and afford us an opportunity to perform several maintenance projects.

This off-season work is designed to ease player traffic on several areas of the course. Specifically, we plan to enlarge and improve select walking paths and re-route several pathways. We will also address a few green areas impacted by sea spray.

Our goal is to continue enhancing the distinctive Doonbeg golf experience while preserving the unique character that has helped this seaside course in County Clare garner praise from members, guests, and media alike.

To ensure the original design integrity is meticulously maintained, all of this work has had the input (and will have continuous oversight) from our course designer, Greg Norman. Greg’s careful and artful design approach is, we feel, fundamentally responsible for the warm reception this links course has enjoyed.  Indeed, Greg’s touch was essential to Doonbeg being named “Best New International Course for 2002” by Golf Digest.

On a related discussion topic, it should be noted that Landmark National is no longer associated with Doonbeg. Landmark National was involved in the preliminary planning of Doonbeg, but KDP alone took title to the acreage from four farm families in December 1999, broke ground that month on the course, and has been the sole developer ever since.

Again, we encourage open discussion of golf courses. The fact that you’re talking about Doonbeg, in our view, speaks to the course’s quality and originality. Going forward, however, if you might be kind enough to contact me, I’ll be pleased to provide an accurate picture of any planned projects.

Best regards,

Leonard L. Long, Jr.
Executive Vice President
Kiawah Development Partners/Doonbeg Golf Club

For media inquiries, please contact Ronnie Musselwhite at rmusselwhite@kiawahisland.com.

[Tim_Weiman]

Leonard:

You may have seen the recent thread about rumors concerning Tom Doak replacing Jack Nicklaus for the Bayberry project. Honestly, my immediate reaction was unhappiness that this rumor had been reported on GCA. My preference was and still is for the project team to make the appropriate announcement when they are ready.

But, this leaves me open to the charge of hypocrisy for I was the person who reported the Fazio/Doonbeg rumors on GCA.

It also begs the question of when something is "news", an issue journalist Brad Klein raised on the Bayberry thread.

Honestly, I am still not sure. The Fazio/Doobeg rumor was not something I made up. While in Ireland recently, several people, both American and local Irish, mentioned to me that this was the rumor floating about. Moreover, I spoke directly to a source I considered reliable who said he was present when Fazio toured Doonbeg. At the very least, I'm happy you have confirmed that part of the story.

In any case, I want to thank you for coming on and clarifying the situation. I've watched Doonbeg evolve from the days when Tony Pender still had the "beware of bull" sign to scare interested parties away. While I've had my doubts about certain aspects of the design, I wish the project well long term.

Regards,

Tim Weiman

[Forrest Richardson]

I'm very pleased to learn that no major "wholesale" changes will take place. I was very impressed with Doonbeg. In my view it will evolve, but is special in most every way, even currently. I would like to support a "change" in the explanation given by caddies at the course concerning the routing. I was told by several people that Norman Design "usually routed" courses with cross-overs and some long walks. "Really," I responded. It became apparent that this explanation was a provided script of sorts. I prefer a straight-forward explanation: "The damn snails played a role, but Norman's team also sougth the most interesting and best golf possible." Doonbeg has nothing to apologize for. It is fun and thought-provoking golf. The endangered snail simply makes it a more interesting story.

[Rob_Babcock]

As with many things, true appreciation and understanding requires time and experience -- whether it is getting to know a person or fully appreciating a golf course. I can understand the need to form an opinion of a course -- even if only after one round -- but that can be problematic.

My personal tendency, though not always, is to rate a course lower if my only rounds there have been poor ones. That has been the case with me regarding my pathetic (referring to my golf game!) experiences at Waterville. Still, it's a lovely course and I understand why many others rate it highly.

My experience playing Doonbeg is more extensive and varied. I'm a member (so yes, that makes me a bit biased) and I've played about 26 rounds there in every combination of temperature, rainfall, and wind direction that you can imagine -- from the tips to the white tees, in shirt sleeves to full-on GoreTex and rain gloves. And my scores have been as varied. Yes, some fairways can be hard to reach; some greens can be hard to hit. But oh, the joy when you stick your approach shot on the absurdly small (that's a good thing folks!) 3rd green; you feel like you've accomplished something. I've both birdied and airmailed the par-three 14th. I've shot in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and (gulp) even a round of 100. This is a layout that requires thinking and execution to match the current conditions. I've always left feeling satisfied with my golf experience, but challenged to perform better the next time.

I'd like to also say that never once have I felt the routing was unsafe. On the contrary. Each time I walk from the 17th green, across the 1st fairway, to the 18th tee it is a walk of anticipation and discovery. For ahead of you lies the fantastic views of Doughmore Bay and a chance to play Doonbeg's final hole along the sweep of the shoreline. I would walk across three fairways for that experience!