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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #100 on: January 27, 2020, 09:04:56 AM »
Dr Rotella has worked with some of the greatest players in the game for what 40 years? He doesn't regurgitate stats from a book that you can't apply to everyone. He may be a Psychologist and your're a Physicist or at least have a physics degree. I fail to see the difference.
I've never claimed to have a physics degree. Neither has Bryson, hopefully, since he didn't graduate! My point was simply that Bob Rotella's area of expertise is psychology, not data analytics, statistical analysis, scoring, etc.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2020, 09:15:31 AM »
OK.  What is the conclusion?  My take is that angles do not matter nearly as much as we would like to think, c.p. and generally speaking, of course.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2020, 09:28:40 AM »
OK.  What is the conclusion?  My take is that angles do not matter nearly as much as we would like to think, c.p. and generally speaking, of course.
I don't know that there's been one, but if there was, I think you said it. I'd only add that angles cease to matter when the combination of the player skill and the conditions let balls fly and stop relatively quickly, and begin to matter more the farther the ball moves (rolls or bounces) once it hits the ground.

Except for the occasional tree, golf is mostly aerial if you can fly it from point to point and stop it relatively quickly, so the angles of bunkers or other hazards on the ground are relatively inconsequential.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2020, 09:31:31 AM »
Dr Rotella has worked with some of the greatest players in the game for what 40 years? He doesn't regurgitate stats from a book that you can't apply to everyone. He may be a Psychologist and your're a Physicist or at least have a physics degree. I fail to see the difference.
I've never claimed to have a physics degree. Neither has Bryson, hopefully, since he didn't graduate! My point was simply that Bob Rotella's area of expertise is psychology, not data analytics, statistical analysis, scoring, etc.


Interesting..
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 01:07:24 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2020, 10:03:53 AM »
5 pages of thread, 100+replies and only in 6 replies (per the search engine) is the word wind mentioned yet imo angles and wind are very much inter-related.
Atb

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2020, 10:31:33 AM »
5 pages of thread, 100+replies and only in 6 replies (per the search engine) is the word wind mentioned yet imo angles and wind are very much inter-related.
Atb
Wind only matters if conditions are firm as it exaggerates the firm if the wind is the wrong direction. From a UK point of view FIRM might 1/12th of the time and the wind being in the wrong direction might be another fraction.
You need all those factors for the great player to be affected and the shot needs to be from over 200 yards....there is a kinda sliding scale that for some a 100 yard approach with everything 'wrong' for the mid handicapper to have a problem.
The principle is brilliant though.


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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #106 on: January 27, 2020, 10:34:29 AM »
5 pages of thread, 100+replies and only in 6 replies (per the search engine) is the word wind mentioned yet imo angles and wind are very much inter-related.
How do you figure?

From 150 yards out, the difference in angle from the extreme right edge of a fairway to the extreme left edge of a fairway that is 35 yards wide… is a little over 12°. That's nowhere near enough to over-ride the other strategic elements on the course - bunkers, rough, the fairway, trees, etc.

P.S. I bet some of those six include uses like "a ball that winds up going…" or similar.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2020, 11:05:02 AM »

OK.  What is the conclusion?  My take is that angles do not matter nearly as much as we would like to think, c.p. and generally speaking, of course.

My conclusion - hit it in the middle as far forward as you are confident you can hit it without getting into trouble.

At least on most US courses, the benefit one can receive from a favorable angle is relatively small compared to the cost of rough, bunkers, trees, water, and out of bounds etc.  The benefit of a shorter distance to the hole outweighs the benefit of a favorable angle but may not be worth the cost of risking a hazard. 

Temptation on a golf course is associated with the cost of obtaining a shorter approach shot, rather than a favorable angle. 
Most, if not people are not good enough to try and prioritize one side of the fairway over the other.

It is possible that good golf course design and firm conditions change this equation.  It is likely the equation changes if one does not have the ability to land the ball on the green and stop it.

If someone cannot make contact with the ball on a pitch shot or has some other significant shortcoming in their game, this analysis might not work at all. 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #108 on: January 27, 2020, 11:54:14 AM »
5 pages of thread, 100+replies and only in 6 replies (per the search engine) is the word wind mentioned yet imo angles and wind are very much inter-related.
Atb


"Strategy is about choices and the ability to execute the shots that are available.  There is a frequent critique that modern players don't possess the shotmaking abilities of their predecessors.  I don't think that this is necessarily true- I've seen too many extraordinary recovery shots when the situation demanded it.  It is more likely a function that most skilled golfers play to their strengths, and absent high rough, holes cut in slopes, and heavy wind, they can more easily control the distance they hit the ball by air."

Reply 25, page 2.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #109 on: January 27, 2020, 12:01:05 PM »
I'm still far from convinced that its the right decision for the other 99% of every day players, even if it is the right choice for pros who have the skills to consistently hit out of different kinds of roughs and various lies.
Assuming the rough isn't 6" PGA Tour rough or something, 50r < 120f for every level of golfer.

This doesn't account for the width available at 50r (i.e. water, OB, thick trees, etc.) vs. 120f (i.e. the shot to get there). Only the expected score from those positions.

If anything, what I've noticed in my own game and those around me of similar skill is that aggressive play and hitting it as far as you can usually works against them.  As opposed to taking the foot off the pedal and trying to play a bit safer and taking double bogey or worse out of the equation most of the time.  Even the most difficult holes can be fairly easy bogeys for High cappers when you plan and play around the trouble and not go for par.
You might be right. I also think you'd be surprised.

For example, a 450-yard hole. And someone comes along and says "just hit your 5H 190, your 7I 150, and then hit your wedge 110. Two putt for bogey." All sounds great, except the guy is gonna miss the green 50% of the time from 110, miss the fairway 50% of the time with his 5H, shank his 7I 10% of the time perhaps… etc.


I always have preached that in many cases that's a bad idea.
Now you have to hit THREE good shots to make a bogie(unlikely for a mid-high handicapper)-and at least one good putt.
Hardly taking double out of the equation.
Besides being boring as.....

Jeff,

No disrespect, but outside of when you were first learning the game, when was the last time you were a poor golfer?  ;D   Even at my best over a 2 year period about 10 yeas ago,  i only got my HC to a 12.

In my experience thou,  I started scoring a lot better when I stopped going for the hero shots to tucked pins or carrying bunkers and just went for the safe areas doing my best to avoid OB, water, and trouble otherwise. I also don't think Erik's 3 irons analogy is very representative either, for me or the myriads of other high cappers I've played with.  We will often choose 3 or 5 wood, and occasionally a long iron, but i can't ever recall using the 3 shorter irons strategy.  But even if I did choose to hit 8 iron, 8 iron, wedge on a hard long par 4, that would still be plausible as other than the putter, my PW thru 7 iron have always been the best clubs in my bag in terms of hitting the intended shot with relative accuracy most of the time.

I'm only one data point, but I can say with absolute certainty that playing safer had a huge impact in significantly reducing doubles and worse.  But yes as a high capper, they are always there.  I doubt I've ever shot a round without taking at least one DB...even my best round ever, a 77,  included one.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #110 on: January 27, 2020, 12:08:15 PM »
Jason,
for me a specific line in your last post gets to the heart of the matter:
"Most people are not good enough to prioritize one side of the fairway over the other". True.
But the part of your sentence I left out, above, is key I think ie "to try to" prioritize one side over the other.
The "trying" itself is a big part of the fun, and the challenge, of golf -- and the rare accomplishing is one of the thrills of the game.
I wouldn't want to stop trying, and I wouldn't want golf course architecture to stop giving me either the (apparent) reason or the room (literally and figuratively) to try.

     

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #111 on: January 27, 2020, 01:43:49 PM »
I also don't think Erik's 3 irons analogy is very representative either, for me or the myriads of other high cappers I've played with.
Oh, FWIW, it wasn't an analogy or anything like that. It's what tens of people have told other members of my forum to do over the years if they want to break 90 or something. "Just play for bogey, don't hit driver ever, just hit 5H off the tees…" that sort of thing. As has been said, they seem to foolishly assume that people will hit THOSE clubs well enough to get on the green in GIR+1… and that they're good enough to two-putt all the time or make an occasional par putt. It's folly.

"Most people are not good enough to prioritize one side of the fairway over the other". True.
This includes PGA Tour players. Until fairways are 40+ yards wide, going for a "side" (assuming symmetrical hazards, etc.) is usually silly.
The "trying" itself is a big part of the fun, and the challenge, of golf -- and the rare accomplishing is one of the thrills of the game. I wouldn't want to stop trying, and I wouldn't want golf course architecture to stop giving me either the (apparent) reason or the room (literally and figuratively) to try.

That's something we can't really discuss, though. Is it more fun to chip a 9I from 110 or to hit a full sand wedge? The answer depends on the person. What rarely depends on the person is that any shot from 110 is going to finish farther from the hole, on average, than a shot from 90, and closer than a shot from 150, etc.

Anyone here is free to play their own game and enjoy golf however they want, but IMO an architect can't do much to control that. Some guys like playing shots along the ground, and an architect can try to reward that or encourage it, but some players don't enjoy that. Don't see it or even think of it.

When discussing "strategy" you almost have to, by the very nature of the topic, discuss generalities, because you're always going to have differences at the individual level: differences in capability, what they enjoy doing, etc.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2020, 08:20:29 AM »
While I saw very little of the Phoenix event this weekend, what I did see revealed a course that should make angles matter. Is there any evidence that id did? Or did not?


Also...if they don't matter on Tour, that's an indictment of the Tour set up process. It is, after all, a show and they want birdies so I get it but it certainly waters down the product to some audiences.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2020, 10:31:23 AM »
While I saw very little of the Phoenix event this weekend, what I did see revealed a course that should make angles matter. Is there any evidence that id did? Or did not?
Curious as to what makes you say that. Why do you think angles mattered here but haven't mattered on the PGA Tour?

FWIW, the course is a complete and utter bore to play IMO, and I don't feel angles really mattered when I played it, either.

Also...if they don't matter on Tour, that's an indictment of the Tour set up process. It is, after all, a show and they want birdies so I get it but it certainly waters down the product to some audiences.
I think it's a testament to how good PGA Tour players are. Until greens are made super-firm (the ball will bounce/roll), angles don't matter when you can fly a ball to a spot and stop it reasonably quickly.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2020, 11:51:05 AM »
I watched quite a bit of the tournament over the weekend, and it looked like the par 5s were the only holes it may have mattered just a little bit.  But agree with Erik in concept, when these guys can fly bunkers on 200+ yard approach shots to tucked pins, that's borderline silly.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2020, 12:26:20 PM »
Is there any data to support that people like watching pros hit the ball further? 


It looks to me like 2019 major final round TV ratings may have been the lowest in history- and that is a year when Tiger won the first major.  The Masters ratings last year was lower than it was in 1995 (when the average drive was 263 yards). 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2020, 01:35:44 PM »

Curious as to what makes you say that. Why do you think angles mattered here but haven't mattered on the PGA Tour?

FWIW, the course is a complete and utter bore to play IMO, and I don't feel angles really mattered when I played it, either.





Just that the greens were rock hard...nothing to do with the course itself.


Wedges and short irons advancing considerable after landing.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2020, 03:02:18 PM »


While I saw very little of the Phoenix event this weekend, what I did see revealed a course that should make angles matter. Is there any evidence that id did? Or did not?



Also...if they don't matter on Tour, that's an indictment of the Tour set up process. It is, after all, a show and they want birdies so I get it but it certainly waters down the product to some audiences.




I'd bet course set up is as much or more a pace of play issue--birdies just happen to be a byproduct, especially with daylight considerations.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2020, 03:15:07 PM »
It looks to me like 2019 major final round TV ratings may have been the lowest in history- and that is a year when Tiger won the first major.  The Masters ratings last year was lower than it was in 1995 (when the average drive was 263 yards).
The Masters aired at 8am last year or whatever, too.
https://www.golf.com/news/2019/04/15/masters-2019-sunday-tv-ratings-tiger-win/

Quote
Live coverage of Sunday’s final round on CBS earned the highest overnight rating for a morning golf broadcast in 34 years, according to CBS Sports. It delivered a 7.7 rating on Sunday morning, as the final round tee times and groupings were moved up to avoid inclement weather on Sunday afternoon.

However, due to the early start time, the 7.7 rating is the second-lowest for a Masters final round since 2004.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.