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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Do angles not matter?
« on: January 21, 2020, 01:56:22 PM »

I have seen a fair amount of data recently that suggests, at least at the professional level, there is no benefit to having a favorable angle when approaching a green.  Here is an example:

https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1219649236880543744/photo/1








JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2020, 02:39:16 PM »
I love this kind of topic...even though it's a rabbit hole.


My culprit for this? Tour set ups with smooth medium fast and flat greens. makes those 6 footers for par really easy for the guy approaching from the wrong side of the fairway.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 02:50:32 PM »
I love this kind of topic...even though it's a rabbit hole.


My culprit for this? Tour set ups with smooth medium fast and flat greens. makes those 6 footers for par really easy for the guy approaching from the wrong side of the fairway.


Exactly.  There is no advantage to be had, if it doesn't matter which side of the hole you wind up on.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2020, 02:53:50 PM »
Wonder if they can do this for specific events where we know the greens actually do offer an advantage.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2020, 03:46:10 PM »
Here is a tool the guy created on Riviera's 10th.  I am not sure whether or not it is consistent or inconsistent with the overall statistics:


https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMzczZmUyMWQtYzA0Yi00ZmNlLWFmNmEtZWRlNjViZTU2M2Y5IiwidCI6ImJiNjY5NzU2LWM0YTktNDYwMS1hOWYyLWQyNDRlNTQzNzk3MSIsImMiOjJ9

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 03:51:02 PM »
Given the way course maintenance practices and equipment has developed over the last few decades I don’t consider that angles generally matter as much as they used too and probably matter less and less these days as the ability of the player increases.
However, for physically weaker players, older folks etc who aren’t able to get much trajectory then I’d still say yes, angles still matter.
Indeed angles might be even more important these days for physically weaker players for as grass has got lusher and rough is more shaped around the entrances to greens the chance to run the ball onto the putting surface has probably diminished so being in the right spot to play a shot into a green when using the kind of non-spinny ball that most lessor players use has meant that finding the best angles has become more crucial.
Atb


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2020, 03:56:18 PM »
Didn't look at the photo, but i've got to think it depends on distance.  Sure maybe from 100-150 yards out its negligible but for 200- 250 its still got to be pretty important.


P.S.  I recall in the Presidents Cup on one of the par 3s at RM, they had a tucked pin just over a bunker that played about 200 yards and these guys were hitting it all over the place trying to find a decent line into that pin.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 03:58:55 PM by Kalen Braley »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2020, 04:09:42 PM »
I'm glad Jim and Tom raised a mitigating factor/counter argument.
I must admit that this new age thinking and these modern stats -- Lou there, and Erik here -- seem more compelling and convincing to me every day.
And I don't like it.
It means that my *natural inclination* and my *rational, reasoned choice* are one and the same!
That doesn't seem right at all.
What kind of game, what kind of game of *golf*, doesn't ask me to struggle against my baser instincts in the service of higher thought?
What am I left with? "Me hit ball hard. Ball go far. Me hit ball hard again. See ball go".
It's like reading "The Cat in The Hat" over and over again, long after the children have gone off to college!
   

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2020, 05:08:35 PM »
This is based on relatively narrow fairways and flat greens around the hole (as mentioned).   They’re is little angle difference created on a narrow fairway versus a wide fairway. 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2020, 05:32:48 PM »
This is based on relatively narrow fairways and flat greens around the hole (as mentioned).   They’re is little angle difference created on a narrow fairway versus a wide fairway.


Paul -


Maybe.  However, I think of a stereotypical tour setup as having flags very close to the edges.  Such a setup would seem to reward approaches from the wide side of the fairway. 


I also wonder if this conclusion would be different with club golfers. 




Regardless of the answer to that question, there are many traditional golf strategic truisms that have been debunked by data:  1) lay up to a preferred yardage (even the worst wedge player is better from 50 yards than 100); 2) it is better to be below rather than above the hole (putting statistics are consistent from either side); 3) short game shots are the most important shots (they are not at any level of play).  I wonder whether the preferred angle question is similarly questionable.


We see the same effect in baseball (strikeouts, home runs); basketball (no mid range 2 point shots) and to a lesser extent in football (going for two on extra points). 


It leads me to wonder whether golf course design should be taking account of analytics when deciding how to challenge the player.

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2020, 05:42:41 PM »
With tour approach shots with 8 irons and shorter that are launched into the stratosphere, landing like butterflies with sore feet, angles make little difference. The professional game is played vertically not horizontally, strategy is what club. to use. Exception was Royal Melbourne where angles and a ground game were paramount.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2020, 06:55:05 PM »
This is based on relatively narrow fairways and flat greens around the hole (as mentioned).   They’re is little angle difference created on a narrow fairway versus a wide fairway.


Paul -


Maybe.  However, I think of a stereotypical tour setup as having flags very close to the edges.  Such a setup would seem to reward approaches from the wide side of the fairway. 


I also wonder if this conclusion would be different with club golfers. 




Regardless of the answer to that question, there are many traditional golf strategic truisms that have been debunked by data:  1) lay up to a preferred yardage (even the worst wedge player is better from 50 yards than 100); 2) it is better to be below rather than above the hole (putting statistics are consistent from either side); 3) short game shots are the most important shots (they are not at any level of play).  I wonder whether the preferred angle question is similarly questionable.


We see the same effect in baseball (strikeouts, home runs); basketball (no mid range 2 point shots) and to a lesser extent in football (going for two on extra points). 


It leads me to wonder whether golf course design should be taking account of analytics when deciding how to challenge the player.


How can being below the hole not be an advantage over being above the hole?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2020, 07:41:57 PM »
With tour approach shots with 8 irons and shorter that are launched into the stratosphere, landing like butterflies with sore feet, angles make little difference. The professional game is played vertically not horizontally, strategy is what club. to use. Exception was Royal Melbourne where angles and a ground game were paramount.


Attack angle and descent angle are the ones that they care about. 

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2020, 09:47:59 PM »
These are the winning scores from the first 9 majors held at this venue: are angles important?
-4
-3
-6
-5
-3
-9
-8
-8
-8





JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2020, 10:15:29 PM »
Not sure I know how to correlate that list to an answer...what course/major?  What years?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2020, 10:59:42 PM »
No
Many reasons
1.with a wedge-no unless tons of slope or tilt (see 2 and 3)
2. with increased distance they are nearly always hitting wedges
3.slope and tilt have been greatly reduced due to successfully convincing people that slope and tilt are gimmicky and that fast greens are more difficult(and then they get flatter etc.)
4. tour pins are often so close to the edge that the player is shooting slightly away from them from any angle
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2020, 11:34:32 PM »
Here is a tool the guy created on Riviera's 10th.  I am not sure whether or not it is consistent or inconsistent with the overall statistics:


https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMzczZmUyMWQtYzA0Yi00ZmNlLWFmNmEtZWRlNjViZTU2M2Y5IiwidCI6ImJiNjY5NzU2LWM0YTktNDYwMS1hOWYyLWQyNDRlNTQzNzk3MSIsImMiOjJ9


Pretty nifty little viz he's got.  If you toggle through the different pin positions you'll see the average score bounce around. 


Fun fact: average score for drives that land on the green is 3.28.  You are more likely to three-putt than one-putt when driving the green. 


(I think he's the green section numbers reversed in the viz as according to the stats the front of the green pins (1) play 3.65 for shots that land on the green (4) while the back of the green plays 2.81.  Damn data quality!). But a 3.65 scoring average when driving the green with pins on one of the sections means pros more often 3-putt than 2-putt in that scenario.  Wow! 

The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2020, 12:24:06 AM »
Angles don't matter unless the ball is rolling. Thus:
  • Angles matter to the average or especially older golfer. They need to roll the ball onto greens, and can't do that if a bunker is in between them and the green.
  • Angles matter to the better player (even PGA Tour players) when the course is firm. For example, Royal Melbourne at the Presidents Cup.
To the average PGA Tour player, angles don't matter, because the ball doesn't roll very far when it lands. The ball comes in steeply and with enough spin that it generally doesn't go very far from where it lands, which means that even from a "bad" angle they can put the ball over hazards and stop it on the green.

Lou worked with Dave Wedzik and I for a year, too, and generated that same chart (in more detail) with us. We did some more digging in and generally:
  • Players playing from the "wrong" side (right side of fairway, right hole location) tended to hit toward the middle of the green more. Less trouble, but slightly longer putts. They played slightly "safe."
  • Players playing from the "correct" side (left side of fairway, right hole location) tended to be a bit more aggressive, which lead to more missed greens, but a slightly closer proximity on greens hit. They played slightly "aggressively."
The numbers, as you can see in the charts, basically balance out, though.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2020, 01:53:40 AM »
I wouldn't endorse any design, presentation or course set up decisions based on the statistics from pro golfers. This is far too small a subset of golfers to give much notice.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 02:04:50 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2020, 03:06:53 AM »
Compared to my time trying to play, it's really amazing how differently the professional game is attempting to be played.


as a 57 year old, I developed my game as a kid largely in New Jersey.  To me, the courses I played were predominantly tight, tree lined, with rough.  Driving it straight, having the ability to work the ball were hugely important to playing well.


As a rookie on tour (1990), much the same.  Driving it in play on most courses I played was important.  Being able to hit one side of the fairway or another was hugely helpful, but not at the risk for most of us to hitting it in the rough. 


Players like Nicklaus, Norman hitting it crazy high, straight and long got players attention, and many worked to emulate that success, looking for height and length.  The manufacturers responded when I was playing, with hybrids, Titanium heads, longer (and more consistent) light shafts all trying to answer a demand. 
Many courses responded by lengthening, creating a reactive arms race.


As the players and manufacturers demands moved towards higher launch and longer carry, RandD evolved tremendously.  The difference in launch ideals from 1995-2000-2010-2020 was staggering.


As a player and then a teacher, the knowledge we gained about the ideal launch parameters was and is amazing.  The ability to accurately measure and capture swing, launch and ball data has hugely impacted my swing as well as my coaching. 
In one weekend in 2015, I made changes in my swing working with Leadbetter that gave me about 25 feet higher ball flight (500 more rpm spin) with my irons.  I picked up about 2 degrees more launch angle with driver, and net gained 1 club and 10 yards.  I had to find these gains even as a Champions player to effectively manage my approaches into greens.  Even for me, at that point, shotmaking became more about controlling my height (and distances) than having the ability to curve the ball each direction.


I was on the sidelines for 10+ years, and it was interesting to watch the evolution (IMO), of this.
Players looking for height, courses lengthening, manufacturers RandD helping players find more height, the tour moving hole locations tighter to edges, players looking for more height, etc.


LA CC was an interesting thing to me.  I had played it when on tour (mid 90's.  I didn't like it then, but it was tough.  Now I like it a ton after the reno , but it seems easier for me with the width and the height I could hit it now.  With more width off the tee, players can add horsepower, and less club into a green which  means more height and less (in many cases) need for a proper angles.


Norman and Tiger really showed fitness and power were huge, and players watched, learned, and adjusted.  The current generation followed a successful blueprint for building a tour game and the knowledge in equipment makes it mare accessible for everyone to find and use that knowledge to max out speed and launch.  The analytics push it more

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2020, 07:00:58 AM »
I made the mistake of giving these clowns the clicks and responses on Twitter before I realized they were repackaging someone else's (Mark Broadie) work.

When you can't answer simple questions about your data with simple answers, you're selling something.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2020, 08:04:53 AM »
I want to see how these numbers change playing from the rough. Absent that it really doesn't help very much. I would think correct angles after missing the fairway are much more important.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2020, 08:57:42 AM »
Justifying anti-strategy design because its ubiquitous is proving why there are only about 50 great courses in the world.


One example;


Koepka's approach to the 10th at Shinnecock, in their last open, shows how important the angle matters to the best in the world. While everyone bombed it over the crest of the hill, he played just short of the left bunker, short of the crest. This thoughtful strategic choice, which gave him both a better angle and an uphill lie, affording a better chance of holding even the firmest green.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2020, 09:00:56 AM »
No
Many reasons
1.with a wedge-no unless tons of slope or tilt (see 2 and 3)
2. with increased distance they are nearly always hitting wedges
3.slope and tilt have been greatly reduced due to successfully convincing people that slope and tilt are gimmicky and that fast greens are more difficult(and then they get flatter etc.)
4. tour pins are often so close to the edge that the player is shooting slightly away from them from any angle

Not to mention the Play it Forward campaign that wants to put wedge in everyone's hands.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do angles not matter?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2020, 10:15:06 AM »
I love this kind of topic...even though it's a rabbit hole.


My culprit for this? Tour set ups with smooth medium fast and flat greens. makes those 6 footers for par really easy for the guy approaching from the wrong side of the fairway.



Thought I answered on this topic, but obviously not.  Some thoughts:


First, 6 foot is the 50% miss/make distance for pros.  They are not "really easy."  Especially under pressure.  Will also reiterate that I believe basing any design solely on the Tour pro (and especially the top 20 we see on TV who are playing at the top of their games) is goofy.  I can see designing for the average Tour Pro, and the stats show these guys still struggle on average out of the rough, the sand, the greens, etc.  I can see using Senior Tour stats as a pretty good proxy for low handicap ams, really.


Second, I have been thinking of throwing in a grenade here, a topic with the title "When will Bareski, Fawcett and Broadie replace McKenzie, Tilly and Ross as the experts on strategy?"  It may never happen on golf club architectural nostalgia.com, but I think it has or will happen in the real golf world, starting with pros, and working down to ams after the stats based strategy becomes more widely publicized.  :)


Third, and remember these observations come from over a decade ago, so we can't blame continuing distance advancements.


I ask every pro I know about their strategy.  Lanny Wadkins (in 1995) on whether having an open green front matters:  "Not much.  If I am between clubs, it helps as I can go down a club.  If I don't have an open front, I club up with more spin. Its a bit harder because I also have to look at the back edge and see if there are any rolls I can use to spin the ball towards the pin.  When asked about one side of the fw or the other on tee shots? "What's wrong with the middle?"


When designing Colbert Hills in 1999, on one hole, I pointed out the better angle to the green was from the bunkered side of the fw, as it provided an open front.  His reaction? Not really.  He prefers aiming to the side of the fw where he needs to come over the bunker on the theory that he aims at the outside edge of the green and curves it back.  He added that he didn't consider ground balls, LOL.


That is similar to those who tee close to OB on the tee, as it doubles their miss angles from X degrees to more than X degrees, and its safer.  The only thing he needs go guard against on those approaches is "overcooking" the fade or draw, or being too aggressive to get close to the pin.


And, Larry Nelson, circa 1986, prior to Pro V 1.....he never looked at hazards at all when planning his approach shot.  He looked at contours that might affect his approach within the green.  He didn't allow it to enter his mind he would miss by that much.  Both he and Colbert loved rolling edges on the greens that allowed a safe play to the middle, but where those rolls could affect you when you went for the pin.  Similarly, all of them would only "tolerate" a few tiered greens per round, reasoning that a contour in the middle of the green had to tendency to take the safe shot well away from the hole if it hit the wrong tier.  They thought that made it pretty easy to make par, but a lot harder to play aggressively to the corners and edges.


Notah Begay III, Litzke, Elkington,  JC Snead and others felt pretty similarly in most areas.  You could throw a blanket over their opinions of what constituted good architecture for them.  Steve Pate was a bit more flexible in his opinion.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 10:26:26 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach