The World Handicap System. Is it Good? (Moved from the BUDA thread)

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Why would anyone who's a "gambler" approach the bet that way?

Taking the strokes early maximizes the chances that they win the bet. It assures them that they get ALL of their strokes.

No "gambler" is going to be playing without presses

That's a different thing, and I've known plenty of people who will play without presses. I think presses are dumb - you can beat someone for 8 or 16 holes or whatever, but "tie" because they win one hole? Dumb.

, and how "smart" would it be to have NO shots on the last 6 holes of EACH side, when playing against someone who's supposed to be giving you 8?

That's two things.

First, they're dumb to give up two shots. But they do it, all the time, because they seem to think the "choice" power makes up for it. It does not.

Second, if they were somehow dumb enough to take that bet, the best thing they could do is take them as early as possible.

Now I might the bet as the 8 with the three shots on the LAST 3 holes of each side

That too would be dumb, as the odds are you wouldn't even get to 16 before you lost. At eight shots, distributed evenly, you'd have likely already gotten six or seven shots before you get to the last three holes, but you're willing to go into the last three having only gotten three? You may be four down after 15.

The point is that the distribution of shots is almost completely irrelevant so long as the number is correct, and so long as something extreme (like a big chunk early, which favors the higher handicapper, or a big chunk late, which favors the lower handicapper) isn't done.

[jeffwarne]

Why would anyone who's a "gambler" approach the bet that way?

Taking the strokes early maximizes the chances that they win the bet. It assures them that they get ALL of their strokes.

No "gambler" is going to be playing without presses

That's a different thing, and I've known plenty of people who will play without presses. I think presses are dumb - you can beat someone for 8 or 16 holes or whatever, but "tie" because they win one hole? Dumb.

, and how "smart" would it be to have NO shots on the last 6 holes of EACH side, when playing against someone who's supposed to be giving you 8?

That's two things.

First, they're dumb to give up two shots. But they do it, all the time, because they seem to think the "choice" power makes up for it. It does not.

Second, if they were somehow dumb enough to take that bet, the best thing they could do is take them as early as possible.

Now I might the bet as the 8 with the three shots on the LAST 3 holes of each side

That too would be dumb, as the odds are you wouldn't even get to 16 before you lost. At eight shots, distributed evenly, you'd have likely already gotten six or seven shots before you get to the last three holes, but you're willing to go into the last three having only gotten three? You may be four down after 15.

The point is that the distribution of shots is almost completely irrelevant so long as the number is correct, and so long as something extreme (like a big chunk early, which favors the higher handicapper, or a big chunk late, which favors the lower handicapper) isn't done.

The distribution of shots is HIGHLY relevant for gamblers who have multiple presses.
No one who gambles walks in after losing 4 and 3.
I would agree that giving up two shots to determine where I get them is dumb and yes it's likely I could be 4 down after 15 but I'm going to win my press on the back and on the nassau with three shots on the last 3.


Always amazed when I see a scorecard with holes 7,8, 9 being the number 5,3 and 1 on the handicap or holes 16,17, 1nd 18 being 6,4 and 2.
As you say where they fall doesn't matter a lot in a pure match of 18 holes (except if they fall so late you're closed out before you can use them) but no "gambler" is simply playing an 18 hole match(there might be a "closeout" match involved if not playing in a group with someone--even then we usually play auto two down presses) but I can assure you that a simple closeout will be a small part of the day's action with a gambler.


Pretty simple-if I'm giving you 9 shots, you're getting one on every other hole-regardless of what the cluseless handicap chairman has posted on the scorecard.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The distribution of shots is HIGHLY relevant for gamblers who have multiple presses.

Of course, but again I don't care about presses, and neither do the ruling bodies, as there's no such thing in the Rules of Golf.

And, since you seem to just make up your own distribution as well, this shouldn't really matter to you, either.

[John Kavanaugh]

As the resident degenerate let me promise you that gamblers do not drive in after a match is over on the 16th hole. They play all 18 most often at progressively higher stakes.


It is only in tournaments where money is usually not an issue that any golfer ends a match early and discontinues play.


I agree that presses are dumb. I am dumb, therefore I press.

[Rob Marshall]

The distribution of shots is HIGHLY relevant for gamblers who have multiple presses.

Of course, but again I don't care about presses, and neither do the ruling bodies, as there's no such thing in the Rules of Golf.

And, since you seem to just make up your own distribution as well, this shouldn't really matter to you, either.

Erik,
You are the one who offered up a gambling tip then you back peddle to the rules of golf and the USGA. Jeff is 100% correct. For the record. The cover up is often worse than the crime. I printed out the original post. Why don't you just admit your mistake, admit you are human and move on.

[jeffwarne]

BTW, gambling tip for y'all… Suppose you have to give a guy 8 shots.

I too thought we were talking about "gambling"....
another 15 pages of rabbit hole

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You are the one who offered up a gambling tip then you back peddle to the rules of golf and the USGA. Jeff is 100% correct. For the record. The cover up is often worse than the crime. I printed out the original post. Why don't you just admit your mistake, admit you are human and move on.

Golfers can gamble or wager on a simple match. Regular old match play. Not having "junk" or presses or other sorts of stuff doesn't mean it's not wagering, or gambling.

You "printed out the original post?" What a waste of paper.

[JMEvensky]

Isn't gambling the only reason for handicaps?

[Rob Marshall]

You are the one who offered up a gambling tip then you back peddle to the rules of golf and the USGA. Jeff is 100% correct. For the record. The cover up is often worse than the crime. I printed out the original post. Why don't you just admit your mistake, admit you are human and move on.

Golfers can gamble or wager on a simple match. Regular old match play. Not having "junk" or presses or other sorts of stuff doesn't mean it's not wagering, or gambling.

You "printed out the original post?" What a waste of paper.

Like I said the cover up can be worse than the crime. I simply feel sorry for you. Have a wonderful day.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I sent email questions to USGA and to The Pope. Am waiting for answers.

I finally got an answer from the USGA. Their response is that they will be posting a response to Knuth's article on USGA.org in the future.

Knuth earlier answered to say he won't share his data with anyone.