Wanted: Stableford game suggestions

[Carl Johnson]

for USA VOGs (very old golfers).  A lot has been mentioned in the thread about the new handicap system
 https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=67131.0 regarding the impact on Stableford play, apparently very popular outside the USA, but not much at all here in the USA (where I am).  For mid- to high-handicap very much seniors, what suggestions do you have for us regarding formats, to keep us playing, and happy, and not taking forever?


Keep in mind that except for the concept of points for X scores vs. par, you'd be speaking to a Yank who does not know your golf language, so the the more detail, the better.  The greater of the variety of games, the better, too.

[Duncan Cheslett]

A popular and fun format among senior golfers is "Am-Am" whereby the field plays in teams of three or four and on each hole the best two individual Stableford scores recorded are combined to give the team score for that hole. At the end of the round the scores are added together to give the total team score.


The attraction of this format is that even weak players having a bad day will make the occasional contribution to the team score by "coming in" on a few holes. A bad hole is quickly forgotten as one's fellow team members do the heavy lifting. There is none of the pressure associated with singles play and marking down every shot taken during the round.


Ideally each team has the same number of players - whether that is three or four makes no difference. When an odd number of players turn up - such as 10, 11, 13 or 14 - a mixture of three and four man teams is necessary and some kind of handicap adjustment must be made. Seemingly no-one has yet resolved categorically whether the four-man teams should play off 75% or 90% handicaps...

[Sean_A]

Stableford Am Am is also known as a Bowmaker which can be with 3 or 4 players on a team. There are lots of baked in things that can be done using this format. One of my favourites is the coloured ball whose points are doubled each hole. The ball rotates between each player. One additional element that can be added is the coloured ball must be returned with the card. If the ball is lost there is a predetermined point fine to pay.

Ciao

[Ian Galbraith]

Another twist to Seans coloured ball play is that if the coloured ball gets lost mid-round your team no longer had the benefit of its double points.


A rather stressful version which I've only played once is Russian stableford where instead of the stableford points being added together they are multiplied together to get your score for that hole. You can imagine that not scoring on hole where your partner makes net eagle is not a happy place to be. 


Another good game if you have a crowd is simply better ball stableford scoring with each pair returning one score. A nice feature of this is you can also have a side bet against the other pair you are playing alongside with the same scoring. Our winter turnup plays like this and the side bet is the entry fee to the overall competition, so win your match and you get your entry fee paid by your playing opposition. Seems to work well at 90% of handicap. If you need to have a three-some go out, each player can return a better ball score with each of the other two players in their group ( A&B, B&C, A&C) - it does give them a slight advantage but if you think it is significant you can handicap it a little more severely (we don't).

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[Thomas Dai]

AmAms or Bowmakers are sometimes also called Alliances. All can be played as mixed male/female teams too.
3 or 4 person team events like these can sometimes be played as best-2 scores on each hole count or sometimes best-3 scores on the par-5’s or par-3’s. Quite a bit of variety can be built into the format, eg using different colour tees on certain pre-specified holes.


If due to overall unequal player numbers there are some 3-ball teams and some 4-ball teams I have played two different versions to find some level of equality ... version one .... the team with 3-players automatically gets 2 pts on each holes so only 1 players score counts unless two players achieve 3 pts each ... and ... where all the players in the team with 4 players play off 3/4 hcp whilst in teams with 3 players all the players use their full hcp.

Atb

[Carl Johnson]

Thanks, what I was looking for.

Any suggestions on points for relationship to target score?  (Assume we play net.)  Rule 21.1(b)(1) provides for points that only increase by 1 for each lower score (e.g., 1 for bogy, 2 for par, 3 for birdie, 4 for eagle), but I've seen references to other systems, e.g., 1 for bogy, 2 for par, 4 for birdie, 7 for eagle.  Any thoughts about the pros and cons of point assignments?

[Ian Galbraith]

Thanks, what I was looking for.

Any suggestions on points for relationship to target score?  (Assume we play net.)  Rule 21.1(b)(1) provides for points that only increase by 1 for each lower score (e.g., 1 for bogy, 2 for par, 3 for birdie, 4 for eagle), but I've seen references to other systems, e.g., 1 for bogy, 2 for par, 4 for birdie, 7 for eagle.  Any thoughts about the pros and cons of point assignments?

In the UK we almost universally play 1 for bogey, 2 for par , 3 for birdie, 4 for eagle, 5 for albatross. I've never used any other points assignment.

[Duncan Cheslett]

If due to overall unequal player numbers there are some 3-ball teams and some 4-ball teams I have played two different versions to find some level of equality ... version one .... the team with 3-players automatically gets 2 pts on each holes so only 1 players score counts unless two players achieve 3 pts each ... and ... where all the players in the team with 4 players play off 3/4 hcp whilst in teams with 3 players all the players use their full hcp.

Atb

Another way - and possibly the most successful - is for 4 man teams to have one player drop out on each hole in rote. Player A will drop out on holes 1, 5, 9, 13, 17. Player B on holes 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 and so on.  The non-scoring player still plays the hole though and almost inevitably gets a meaningless net birdie or eagle! 

[A.G._Crockett]

Carl,
More commonly in the US, stableford is just called a points game.  The standard breakdown differs a bit from Ian's; 1 for bogey, 2 for par, 4 for birdie, 8 for eagle, and 16 for an ace.  Some games penalize one point for double or worse, but many do not. 

I think that this format is used commonly in Saturday morning games at a club, with quotas adjusted each week, either by the club or a "commissioner".  Typically, quotas go up by one point for every two over your quota, with a max of a 4 point increase, and go down one point if you fall short of your quota, regardless of how short you are.  You can make the payouts anything you want in terms of how many places you pay.  The usual starting point is 36 minus your index as a quota for the first three games, then a quota is set based on those three rounds and you go from there.  The great thing about this game is that you can have guys playing from different tees with no problems or adjustments.  It can also be combo'd nicely with a skins game.
If you have fewer players and no desire to adjust quotas weekly, try "10 Ball", or one of the variations.  So if two or three guys are playing against each other in the same group, each guy has to count his score on 10 holes; he has to declare before the next tee whether or not he wants the previous hole to count.  If it's two against two, it would be 10 holes each (20 ball); if it's my foursome against yours, it would be 40 Ball.  Lots of decisions, keeps everybody in the game, can be played gross or net, etc.
Another obvious game if you have a regular foursome is to rotate partners every six holes; those that don't like the term 666 often call this a California.

If your group is smaller and you have only a threesome, a six point game is a lot of fun.  There are six points on every hole; an outright winner gets 4 points, with a second place tie between the other two players getting one each.  A clear second would be a 4-2-0 split; two tie is 3-3, and all tie is either 2-2-2 or 0-0; it comes out the same.  Again, keeps people in the game because a bad hole doesn't kill you, and it can be played gross or net.
Hope that helps.

[jeffwarne]

Carl,
More commonly in the US, stableford is just called a points game.  The standard breakdown differs a bit from Ian's; 1 for bogey, 2 for par, 4 for birdie, 8 for eagle, and 16 for an ace.  Some games penalize one point for double or worse, but many do not. 

Another way the US has screwed up golf.
A Stableford is intended to speed up play and keep the game moving by allowing one to pick up when out of a hole, and only gain positive points.
I've played in several pro events using "modified" Stableford where a bogie was -1 and double or worse was -3. So now the slowest and most painstaking putt is the one for a freaking bogie, knowing that a miss is a catostrophic -3. ugggghhhhh
Silly-and slow

[Scott Warren]

Split sixes is a good stableford game when you only have a three-man group (so can't play best-ball or Wolf).


Essentially, there are six points available to be won on each hole (based on the stableford points each player scores).


If there are no ties, the points are awarded 4 for the winner, 2 for runner-up and 0 for the last-placed.


If two players tie for the win, points are allocated 3-3-0.


If someone wins and the other two tie, it's 4-1-1.


If everyone ties, it's 2-2-2.


The beauty of any form of stableford game is the ability to pick-up when you've had nett par + 2 shots.


We also play par events a fair bit in Australia, which is essentially match-play against the scorecard (so pluses for net birdie or better, a half for nett par and a minus for nett bogey or worse) -- only difference to match play is that you play and score all 18 holes, regardless of how far ahead or behind you end up.

[James Bennett]

Scott

when I played split sixes a long, long time ago, you could win all six points if you won the hole by two clear points or more.

James B

[Sean_A]

We also play par events a fair bit in Australia, which is essentially match-play against the scorecard (so pluses for net birdie or better, a half for nett par and a minus for nett bogey or worse) -- only difference to match play is that you play and score all 18 holes, regardless of how far ahead or behind you end up.

It is very rare these days, but some old comps are still played at Bogey 4somes. Same scoring as above, but playing 4somes. It is indicative how things have changed in the use of bogey and par. I really like this format, my favourite for a pairs non matchplay comp.

Ciao

[Ian Galbraith]

Scott

when I played split sixes a long, long time ago, you could win all six points if you won the hole by two clear points or more.

James B

I like this and will be suggesting it the next time we play split 6 - keeps the game alive a little longer as you approach the end of the round.


In fact I've never thought of split 6 as a stableford game - you still got your 4 points for winning the hole with a 10 !

[Mark Pearce]

Split sixes is a good stableford game when you only have a three-man group (so can't play best-ball or Wolf).


Essentially, there are six points available to be won on each hole (based on the stableford points each player scores).

The coring in this game is exactly the same based on net score.  Why convert to Stableford?  I do like split sixes when in a three, though.

[A.G._Crockett]

Carl,
More commonly in the US, stableford is just called a points game.  The standard breakdown differs a bit from Ian's; 1 for bogey, 2 for par, 4 for birdie, 8 for eagle, and 16 for an ace.  Some games penalize one point for double or worse, but many do not. 

Another way the US has screwed up golf.
A Stableford is intended to speed up play and keep the game moving by allowing one to pick up when out of a hole, and only gain positive points.
I've played in several pro events using "modified" Stableford where a bogie was -1 and double or worse was -3. So now the slowest and most painstaking putt is the one for a freaking bogie, knowing that a miss is a catostrophic -3. ugggghhhhh
Silly-and slow

Jeff,Perhaps I should have said "a few" for the games that penalize, and added "most do not".  The most common format for points games is to pick up at double bogey.  Like you, I prefer that, for a variety of reasons, including pace of play.

Whether or not the penalty aspect is a US creation, and whether or not it is evidence of how the US has "screwed up golf" I'll leave for others to decide.

[Mike_Trenham]

For a difficult game try Train.


Its a net Stableford game (you get your strokes as allocate), 1 for bogey, 2 for par, 3 for birdie, 4 for eagle etc.


1) To get on the train you must complete two consecutive holes earning points, only then do you begin to accumulate points. 


2) If at anytime you make two doubles or more in a row you go back to 0 and must earn your way on the train again.


3) End of the round you have a number for points differential like $1.00 each vs the other players in the game.  Can be everyone in your foursome or a group of foursomes.


I was introduced to this game at Pine Valley where it can be difficult to get on the train and just as difficult to stay on it.[size=78%] [/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]

[Carl Johnson]

Regarding split sixes.  I love it.  At my club we do this based on net scores on each hole (not Stableford points), but call it "nines" and the points are 5 - 3 - 1 for the three ball (with ties splitting the sum).  Some of my friends don't like this, "It's too complicated, too many numbers to add up."  So I've suggested we go to 4 - 2 - 0 (what some of you are calling "split sixes") -- "You don't have to add so high," I say.  The net results are the same as in "nines."  It's simple math.  But I get quizzical looks, and "No, that's different."  Go figure.    (Is this just another example of how us Yanks are ruining golf?    )

[James Bennett]

Why get a point for finishing last Carl? Every player wins a prize?

[jeffwarne]

Regarding split sixes.  I love it.  At my club we do this based on net scores on each hole (not Stableford points), but call it "nines" and the points are 5 - 3 - 1 for the three ball (with ties splitting the sum).  Some of my friends don't like this, "It's too complicated, too many numbers to add up."  So I've suggested we go to 4 - 2 - 0 (what some of you are calling "split sixes") -- "You don't have to add so high," I say.  The net results are the same as in "nines."  It's simple math.  But I get quizzical looks, and "No, that's different."  Go figure.    (Is this just another example of how us Yanks are ruining golf?    )

Great game for three balls
We add a point for junk(birdies, chippies, sandies , greenies etc)
so if you win the hole with a birdie it's 6-3-1 or with a greenie birdie it's 7-3-1 etc. but  you don't have to win the hole to score junk(example a greenie or a sandy)

[Michael Whitaker]

Carl,
In one of my weekly senior groups we play in teams of three or four and the team score is one best ball gross + one best ball net. Lots of fun and everyone gets an opportunity to contribute... or not! We bet $2 for the front, $2 for the back, and $2 for the overall (per man). Also, we have a $1 bet on the front for a "rabbit" and $1 on the back for a "rabbit" (per man). So, it's a total of $8 bet per man.

With all bets if two teams tie everyone gets their money back. Same for the "rabbit" bet.

The "rabbit" is kind of a skins bet:  someone must win a hole alone... then they are "holding" one leg of the rabbit.  They then must match the low score on the next hole or lose the leg. If they are holding a leg and win another hole they now have TWO legs of the rabbit! But, again, must match the low score on the following hole or give it up. If while someone is holding a leg another person wins a hole alone the leg is knocked loose... and, the rabbit is running... until another player wins a hole alone. Whoever holds the rabbit at the end of nine holes wins the pot for that side. If no one holds the rabbit the pot is returned to everyone. Makes for a fun scorecard match at the end of the round.

[Carl Johnson]

Why get a point for finishing last Carl? Every player wins a prize?

I cannot give a better explanation.  It is beyond me.

[Matt MacIver]

We too play “9s” as a threesome and occasionally will add 1-2 points on the back nine if anyone makes a gross par - gives the third place player something to play for.


For Stableford our guys make you “earn” your winnings: everyone subtracts their HC from 36 and that the number of points you must earn to “be in the money”. A scratch golfer would have to get 36 points and a 18 would have to get 18.  Only those players above their minimum (and sometimes at) split the pot.

[Carl Johnson]

Matt:[/size]

"We too play “9s” as a threesome and occasionally will add 1-2 points on the back nine if anyone makes a gross par - gives the third place player something to play for."[/color]


Would you explain this in more detail? Maybe an example or two.  I'm having a time trying to figure out exactly how it works.


Thanks.

[Matt MacIver]

Carl - each hole a total of 9 points have to be earned. 


If all three tie (net) each gets 3. 
If two tie and one has a worse score: 4/4/1
If one wins and two have a worse score: 5/2/2
All three have a different score: 5/3/1 (or 4/3/2 if you want to keep the game closer for someone that isn’t going to play to their HC that day...). 


We play overall only but you could play Nassau, i.e. score front/back/overall.