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Tom Walsh

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Just released-  https://normandiegolf.com/
Will reopen as a joint venture between the Saint Louis Metropolitan Golf Association and Beyond Housing.

https://thefriedegg.com/normandie-golf-course-tribute/?fbclid=IwAR0the529lfTF5g7me4CukKtLaIXIpegHjYWZQbB7Ho9Jxxn9ML23JHSRK4 :(
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:49:46 PM by Tom Walsh »
"vado pro vexillum!"

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 10:41:43 AM »
https://thefriedegg.com/normandie-golf-course-tribute/?fbclid=IwAR0the529lfTF5g7me4CukKtLaIXIpegHjYWZQbB7Ho9Jxxn9ML23JHSRK4
 :(


Thanks for posting Tom. I, along with several others, are trying to put a group together and save it. Have had lots of helpful feedback from people on GCA.


What we're up against is the same old golf management program, maintaining it as a $25 w/cart run down public course that makes a thin profit margin. Our concept is a Save Goat Hill/Commonground ethos. Place needs some serious infrastructure improvements though, so the concern is the cost just to get repairs.


Its no exaggeration though that it could be the most interesting layout in St. Louis. With tree removal and drainage work alone it could be special. Greens are interesting and not in bad shape


Open to any ideas or involvement!

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2020, 10:58:33 AM »
Brilliant writing! 


Lord, I hate to see these municipal gems disappear.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 10:58:38 AM »
Tom,
Thank you for sharing this very sad news.  That was a very good article.
Losing Normandie is a real loss to the history of golf.


Most typical golfers have no idea of how great it was to grow up playing a cheap course that was full of classic architecture.


Caddying at Algonquin in the 1980s, much of our Monday golf was split between Normandie, Forest Park (18), and Bahnfyre, and a little at Crescent & Grand Marias.  (It is always fun trying to explain to people that in high school I used to drive to a golf course in East St. Louis.)


(I was too late for Crystal Lake, other than 1 round out there in about 1978 with my brother Mark.)


So many good holes at Normandie:
 #1 Was a bear of an opener, blind drive over a hill, and then a fairway wood or long iron from a downhill lie to an elevated green.

 #2 Maybe the plainest hole on the course, but still interesting, long but flat dogleg right.  I always like this gentle 2nd after the brutal 1st.  Double bogey & worse was possible on #1,  #2 was usually a par or at worse a bogey.  If you got a double on #1 & then a par on #2, it felt like a good round was possible.  But +3 after 2, and it was probably going to be long day.
 #3 Good long par 3 early in the round, 210 on scorecard, but played about 190.  Nothing tricky or fancy - just hit a solid iron shot or scramble to try to salvage a par.
 #5 Short iron to green about 40-50' below the tee.
 #7 Tight par 5 that was a true 3 shotter.
 #8 Quality short par 4 - birdie time. (One of 3 par 4s (#6 & #13) of barely 300 - birdies were possible.  Good holes for a 4-man weekly skins game)
 #9 Tricky side hill lie for the second, usually with a mid-iron if you hit a good tee shot.
 #10 Was impossible.  Blind tee shot, green perched to left with creek in front & to right of green; OB long & left.  I do not think I EVER hit this green in 2.  Score card says 420.  But tee shot was very uphill, and green was small with NO margin for error.  Played like it was 450 (in those persimmon/balata days).
 #11 Was one of the top holes in St Louis.  Needed a long drive, to have a chance at getting your 2nd on to this elevated green, that dropped off severely to the left.
 #12 Wedge to another large elevation drop
 #14 Big wide fairway, slight blind tee shot, then straight down to green, but tough putting green.
#15 Short par-5.  Last chance for a birdie.
#16 Challenging par 3 - mid iron, OB left some deep bunkers right. But the easiest hole of the last 3.
 
#17 - 570 yards+ all continually uphill.  One of the BEASTS in St Louis.
 #18 And then what follows is a 250 yard par 3.  BUT with slight elevation drop, and open in front to allow a shot to bounce on.  I usually choked down on a driver (persimmon remember), and made about a 3-quarter swing to allow the ball to bounce on to the green.  there was OB left & long, but green was very big.  Right of green was severe elevation drop.  Therefore, being short or bouncing onto the green was always the best miss.


Traps were solid, with some depth, but not too many.  Had to hit solid iron shots, play smart off the tees, know how to play from uneven lies, and be a good wedge player around the greens.


If the greens & conditioning had been better it would have been amazing, but instead the place was affordable, and attracted those who loved good golf but could not afford pricey golf.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:05:24 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Tom Walsh

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2020, 11:06:08 AM »
Thanks for the update Ryan. You named it- drainage, trees, and bunkers. I live in St. Louis and will keep my eyes and ears open for updates. The bones are obviously there. You said it Bill-- a great layout. Normandie has a handful of some of the best holes in town.  :D
"vado pro vexillum!"

Tim_Cronin

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 04:00:23 PM »
Damn.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Dan Smoot

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 04:37:00 PM »
Normandie was my favorite place to play in St Louis from 1988 - 1990.  Actually drove around the periphery to take another look a couple of months ago.  It did suffer a little from over watering at times where portions of the course was quite wet at times.  Loved the course, challenging, tree lined with good but not excessive elevation changes.  Fun to play.  Sorry to see this happen.  Located in a neat older neighborhood with old style architecture (housing).  I assume that the course was not self sustaining financially.

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 04:48:15 PM »
According to sources, the course did about 3/4 of a million dollars last year in revenue. It certainly seemed like there wasn't much spent on the course, so I'd assume there was enough profit. Of course, I'm saying this as someone not in golf business.


But an employee was killed when a tractor rolled over him. So not sure if a pending lawsuit has something to do with it.

Tom Walsh

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 08:26:13 PM »
"vado pro vexillum!"

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 11:10:21 AM »
Several groups are putting proposals together. Don't know many details but apparently there is a lot interest in keeping it going as a public community golf course. So the good news is Normandie will be saved

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2020, 02:30:57 PM »
A group I'm involved with is submitting a proposal tomorrow. Our focus is creating a community organization that will work together with the university that owns the course to fund youth golf and leadership programs while also assisting in renovation costs. Can't go into more details until after tomorrow.


Thank you to all on this board who work in course operations who shared their insights and advice. Greatly appreciated

Tim_Cronin

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2020, 07:53:15 PM »
A group I'm involved with is submitting a proposal tomorrow. Our focus is creating a community organization that will work together with the university that owns the course to fund youth golf and leadership programs while also assisting in renovation costs. Can't go into more details until after tomorrow.


Thank you to all on this board who work in course operations who shared their insights and advice. Greatly appreciated


That's great news. Best of luck!
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

John McCarthy

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2020, 09:50:14 AM »
Good luck, Ryan.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Tom Walsh

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2020, 03:17:28 PM »
That's great news! Way to go Ryan! 8)
"vado pro vexillum!"

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2020, 05:24:12 PM »
That's great news! Way to go Ryan! 8)


Thanks Tom, but I had very little to do with it. I quickly realized there were people interested who knew a lot more about operating a golf course, but I found a group putting together an idea I wanted to be part of and got onboard.


But if this group is fortunate enough to get selected I think it could have a lot of principles we in the Golf Club Atlas crowd appreciate. And Normandie should be back open for play by early summer.

Tom Walsh

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2020, 09:12:53 PM »
Ryan- As a former student of mine used to say "Blasts of positive vibrations in your direction". Good luck to the group. T$
"vado pro vexillum!"

Tom Walsh

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Just released-  https://normandiegolf.com/
Joint venture between the Saint Louis Metropolitan Golf Association and Beyond Housing.
"vado pro vexillum!"

Brad Tufts

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I've only played it once, a couple years ago...good bones, tired old course with some issues.


I know nothing about the two organizations involved, but it doesn't read "infusion of cash to bring conditions and design quality back" so much as "keep the doors open and promote junior golf."


Anybody have insight?


Not trying to be sour at all, and I'm glad a historic course stays open!  Just curious....
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tom Walsh

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Brad- indeed. Both groups are not for profits. They hope to use the course as a 'philanthropic platform'. It seems the quest for some real money begins.http://www.metga.org/2020/04/24/maga-and-beyond-housing-to-re-open-normandie-golf-course/
"vado pro vexillum!"

Joe Bausch

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Just released-  https://normandiegolf.com/
Joint venture between the Saint Louis Metropolitan Golf Association and Beyond Housing.


Beautiful, man (Tom!).


It is on my radar to visit post COVID-19!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Amarnek

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Joe,
Let me know if you do come to St. Louis.  I’ve only played Normandie once quite awhile ago, but would be delighted to meet you over there.  If time permits, I’ll show you other courses in the area (I’m at Westwood CC).  Had my knee replaced recently and am just beginning to swing a bit.  Looking forward to getting back to Philly at some point, been too long away from GMGC!

Ryan Hillenbrand

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My understanding is they’re getting the course re- opened “as is” while they fund raise this year for substantial improvements and renovations. Rumor has it a certain golf hall of famer/architect has agreed to waive his design fees if he does the project.

Joe Bausch

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Joe,
Let me know if you do come to St. Louis.  I’ve only played Normandie once quite awhile ago, but would be delighted to meet you over there.  If time permits, I’ll show you other courses in the area (I’m at Westwood CC).  Had my knee replaced recently and am just beginning to swing a bit.  Looking forward to getting back to Philly at some point, been too long away from GMGC!


Deal!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Buck Wolter

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My understanding is they’re getting the course re- opened “as is” while they fund raise this year for substantial improvements and renovations. Rumor has it a certain golf hall of famer/architect has agreed to waive his design fees if he does the project.



I wonder if Kye Goalby would do the same?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The antique Normandie (1901) closing in St. Louis today (will reopen!)
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2020, 11:27:55 AM »
Here we go again........


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/umsl-to-sell-normandie-golf-club-for-1-5-million-nonprofit-seeking-pledges-to-help/article_0c7b8f74-ef4e-55d9-a047-7ccfed92a3c7.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1




This non profit will probably not pull this off. Needs to be bought outright by a private investor with a vision and a good rolodex