[Rob Marshall]

I remember when all the Tour players were complaining about playing PGA West. I personally have  only played HT and TOC course, not enough to form an opinion. Were his courses harder by design? Fair for all players? Just tour pros whining?

[Tim_Weiman]

I remember when all the Tour players were complaining about playing PGA West. I personally have  only played HT and TOC course, not enough to form an opinion. Were his courses harder by design? Fair for all players? Just tour pros whining?

Rob,


Based on my experience at PGA West, people loved the place. There were even people deliberately hitting to the left of 16 green to imitate Tip O’Neill.


I was about a 10 HCP when I played it 3-4 times and had lots of fun. Ditto for Black Wolf Run, Whistling Straits, Long Cove and Harbor Town, though the latter was probably my least favorite.

[Tom_Doak]

Too hard for whom?




The most wrong thing anyone ever said about Pete Dye were the Tour players who said he didn't understand their games, and that they were not as good as he thought they were.  He knew exactly how good they were, and courses like the TPC at Sawgrass and PGA West were built to make them show off their skills.


But, Pete also believed that the only way to really challenge elite players was to get under their skin, and he tried to do that every way he could think of.  When players complained about something, he'd make a mental note to do more of that.  When I was working on the plans for PGA West, he shared a bunch of that knowledge with me.  The one quote I used from that time which I maybe shouldn't have, because he only said it to me as a worker and not as a writer, was a beauty:  "When you get those dudes thinking, they're in trouble."




The first year they held the Players Championship at the TPC at Sawgrass, in 1982, it was the week of my spring break from college [and also my 21st birthday], and having worked for Mr. Dye the summer before, and having corresponded with Deane Beman for years, I got myself down there for the week.  On the Friday and most of the Saturday, I just went around the course with Mr. Dye, one hole at a time, observing play, but staying just outside of where any of the players would recognize him.  We would wait until someone got themselves in Position Z, watch them hit a great recovery shot, and Pete would say, "Well, that hole's playable," and we would move on to the next one.    


The first year, the players in contention were either young guys who didn't worry about how hard it was [Bruce Lietzke, Brad Bryant, Jerry Pate] or very controlled players [Hale Irwin, Ed Sneed, and I guess you could put Lietzke in that category, too].  The marquee players all had a terrible week, and most of them missed the cut.  They were just completely psyched out, after three days of providing quotes about everything that was unfair about the course.


I went back for the '83 event while I was home for a couple of months in the winter of my scholarship year, and I went out with Pete again to follow Jack Nicklaus on the Saturday morning, after he had barely made the cut.  He started on #10, playing with Isao Aoki just a couple of years removed from Baltusrol, and Jack started off hot -- he shot 5 under par on the back nine.  No one was happier about it than Pete, as Jack was proving that the course was playable.  But after Jack made the turn he started playing much more conservatively, making a bunch of pars and a bogey on 8 to shoot 68, and that was the most upset I ever saw Mr. Dye.  A great round would have shut everyone up about the golf course, Jack included, but he seemed to have subconsciously backed off from doing it. 


It would take two or three more years [and a few more tweaks] before the big names got more comfortable there, and the scores really started going down.

[jeffwarne]

Great stuff Tom.
I might add for anyone interested that Tom will be on SiriusXM PGA TOUR Radio Golf School tomorrow at 8 AM doing a tribute show for Mr. Dye.


You left out Scott Simpson-another control guy who finished second.
Scott's my new partner once a month on "Golf School" on Saturday mornings and we discussed the 1982 TPC on our show last month.
I will say one thing that jumped out at me about the 1982 TPC was that Seve finished 5th and Tom Watson finished sixth, so in addition to the control players Tom mentioned, there also were some long hitting, swashbuckling and bold shotmakers near the top as well, showing the world that all types of players COULD have success at TPC, which has gone on to be the history of the event.



As far his courses being tough, all I can say is that I learned how to actually play golf at Long Cove, working there for 3 full years in my first pro job. having had my woefully one dimensional inland game be exposed in my first few rounds there.

[Pat Burke]

Wasn’t a lot of that scoring going lower the softening of a lot of the original work Mr Dye and his team did by the tour?


My first Players was 1996. After my first practice round I was excited. Being able to shape the ball and control distances was my strength  and I couldn’t wait to play the tournament.  I was told it was a lot less difficult than when it opened by a lot of players
But I felt like that at a lot of the Dye courses i played. If you could control the flight of approaches, a lot of “difficult “ hole locations were really accessible. 




And Tom, I’d imagine the passing of the Dyes is a tough time for you and all those close to them.  My thoughts and prayers to all

[Ken Moum]

I remember when all the Tour players were complaining about playing PGA West. I personally have  only played HT and TOC course, not enough to form an opinion. Were his courses harder by design? Fair for all players? Just tour pros whining?

Well, the only Dye course I've played is the one I'm currently playing three to five times week, Red Mountain Ranch in Mesa, AZ.


But I'll say this, a lot of golfers don't like it much at all, in no small part because it is difficult, and infuriating.  But it's also endlessly engaging.  As one low handicapper here said, "I'd never been a member at any club, and I asked a friend who played here if I'd get bored playing the same course every day.  I've been here three years and I've never been bored."


I've played it off and on since 1991, but only joined the club a year ago. I flipping love the place...partly because it is difficult.  But it's also a temptress. Even though I'm a short-hitting 72 year old, by playing the white tees that are under 5400 yards I feel like I should be able to par every hole.  Of course I can't, which makes it interesting.


Jeff Warne got it right when he said, "As far his courses being tough, all I can say is that I learned how to actually play golf at Long Cove, working there for 3 full years in my first pro job. having had my woefully one dimensional inland game be exposed in my first few rounds there."


FWIW, after playing today I was talking about the course with one of guys in the game and we tried to think of a green where a hole-high missed green was better, or even equal to, a miss short.


For young, strong players it demands restraint.  Last Saturday I played the monthly ABCD with a legit 300-yard driver.  And he used the big stick THREE times in 18 holes, playing the blues at 6100 yards.


Is it too hard? Depends on who you talk to.

[Rob Marshall]

Thank you Tom, that was the kind of inside information I was hoping to hear. I hope everyone understands no disrespect was intended. I wanted to hear from the guys who understand from a design aspect vs the tour players.

[Tom_Doak]

Wasn’t a lot of that scoring going lower the softening of a lot of the original work Mr Dye and his team did by the tour?


My first Players was 1996. After my first practice round I was excited. Being able to shape the ball and control distances was my strength  and I couldn’t wait to play the tournament.  I was told it was a lot less difficult than when it opened by a lot of players
But I felt like that at a lot of the Dye courses i played. If you could control the flight of approaches, a lot of “difficult “ hole locations were really accessible. 


And Tom, I’d imagine the passing of the Dyes is a tough time for you and all those close to them.  My thoughts and prayers to all

Pat:


Oh, yes, by 1996 the course was VERY different in terms of putting surfaces.


And thanks for your last note, but honestly, this is the first good day of remembering Mr. Dye I have had for some time.  I've had some experience with Alzheimer's in my own family.  Pete has really been gone for a while now, but it's hard to come to terms with that when he was still with us.  Now that I'm able to let that go, it's nice to reconnect with all of the positive memories.  He was always a treat to be around.

[Pat Burke]

Wasn’t a lot of that scoring going lower the softening of a lot of the original work Mr Dye and his team did by the tour?


My first Players was 1996. After my first practice round I was excited. Being able to shape the ball and control distances was my strength  and I couldn’t wait to play the tournament.  I was told it was a lot less difficult than when it opened by a lot of players
But I felt like that at a lot of the Dye courses i played. If you could control the flight of approaches, a lot of “difficult “ hole locations were really accessible. 


And Tom, I’d imagine the passing of the Dyes is a tough time for you and all those close to them.  My thoughts and prayers to all

Pat:


Oh, yes, by 1996 the course was VERY different in terms of putting surfaces.


And thanks for your last note, but honestly, this is the first good day of remembering Mr. Dye I have had for some time.  I've had some experience with Alzheimer's in my own family.  Pete has really been gone for a while now, but it's hard to come to terms with that when he was still with us.  Now that I'm able to let that go, it's nice to reconnect with all of the positive memories.  He was always a treat to be around.

Great point. Grandmother went away before our eyes while still being strong as a horse physically.   Hope all concerned can enjoy the memories now.  We can enjoy the courses which is an amazing legacy

[David_Elvins]

The only Pete Dye course I have played was PGA West. 


Played the back tees because I wanted to see what all the fuss about, regarding how difficult the course was. 


Ended up breaking my handicap, and having a blast.


The back nine par 3s were the only 2 holes where I ever felt I couldn't bail out or lay up safely if I felt like it. 


It is a long way from the most difficult course I have played.

[archie_struthers]

 


Thanks for sharing Tom, really good stuff. Your style and Pete's seem so different and its really interesting that he was in many ways a mentor of yours, or so it seems.


Met Mr Dye while looping at Pine Valley most likely around 1980. My interest in architecture was nascent a but realized that Pine Valley was special and right in my back yard. Many notables passed thru the gates on Atlantic Avenue and Pete Dye was one.


 My best recollection of Pete was him standing in the bunker way left on the 6th hole about 200 yards off the tee. Vaguely remember his attire being a little odd for the time, as he was a vision in khaki from head to toe, sans the pith helmet. Again my only real memory was his fascination with that series of bunkers left on 6 that rarely came into play. He was standing there like a little kid in sandbox just looking and walking around in the bunkers.


That was it , but his childlike joy just walking around and looking sticks in my mind!

Condolences to Tom and Pete's friends and family
RIP and a life well lived

[Mike_Trenham]

Great stuff Tom.
I might add for anyone interested that Tom will be on SiriusXM PGA TOUR Radio Golf School tomorrow at 8 AM doing a tribute show for Mr. Dye.


You left out Scott Simpson-another control guy who finished second.
Scott's my new partner once a month on "Golf School" on Saturday mornings and we discussed the 1982 TPC on our show last month.
I will say one thing that jumped out at me about the 1982 TPC was that Seve finished 5th and Tom Watson finished sixth, so in addition to the control players Tom mentioned, there also were some long hitting, swashbuckling and bold shotmakers near the top as well, showing the world that all types of players COULD have success at TPC, which has gone on to be the history of the event.



As far his courses being tough, all I can say is that I learned how to actually play golf at Long Cove, working there for 3 full years in my first pro job. having had my woefully one dimensional inland game be exposed in my first few rounds there.

Great stuff from Jeff and Tom and Bob Patton.


My friend Brett Upper helped introduce the developers/investors of Bulle Rock in Maryland to Pete Dye.  To get Pete introduced to the project they flew out to Indiana on a private jet, picked him up and flew him to Maryland. 


As they walked the site it was nothing but woods and bramble and a stream.  After about an hour Pete declares "the only way I am going to understand this property is if we can see where this stream goes".  So Pete just jumped into the stream and started walking.  Brett said he thought 'what the hell when I am ever going to have this experience again' and jumped in the creek with Pete.  The money guys took their leave.  I think Pete may have in part just wanted to see who had what in them and who were his kind of people. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Mike that's really good !  Love it.

[Scott Sander]

He built to the difficulty requested.

Our club requested a course playable for all and challenging enough for state and regional tournaments.

It holds up very well in those events.
And those on the other end of the spectrum could play 16 holes with a putter and would only need to add a wedge to play.

He tinkered out here all the time (we are near his home), and he occasionally made bunkers on the heroic lines more devious and such, but he NEVER added difficulty for those whose struggles started in the parking lot.

[Matt Kardash]

The Major Championship scoring record was broken at Whistling Straits in 2015. Yet, before every PGA Championship all the pro's talk about how difficult the place is. I think that's the thing about a Dye course; they usually look much harder than they are. He gives the golfer plenty of scoring opportunities. I think Whistling Straits has around 5 par 4's at 400 yards or less, plus 2 par 3's where you either hit a wedge of short iron, plus 4 par 5's. By my count that is at least 11 holes that are being attacked with a short club to fairly large greens. It's easy to forget that when you see 1000 bunkers.

[Tom_Doak]

By my count that is at least 11 holes that are being attacked with a short club to fairly large greens.

Yes, but the Tour pros are used to 18 of them!

[Jason Thurman]

I played Teeth of the Dog with my father-and-brother-in-law, combined handicap approximately 72.8 at the time, but higher under the new system for sure. My father-in-law played the whites and sauntered his way to a 115 with a lot of asterisks and a handful of great shots by his standards. [size=78%]His day was about as good as golf gets.[/size][/size][size=78%] He often just picks a club to hit all his full shots with for 3-7 consecutive holes, and I remember that really confusing the caddie. Little Bro bit off a little too much from the blues, but that was probably a character building decision in the long run. That was a great round. Top 2 all time caddie for sure - Happy New Year to Carlos and Big Money![/size]
[/size]
[/size]
I think Whistling Straits will go down as my mother's last round walking 18 on a regulation course, but she had a great time playing it in a 25 mph wind from the winter direction on a day when the high might've been 43* (that's like 4* or something for you Celsius guys, since there's still no World Temperature System). She never has played especially well, and there's not a lot she can teach you about playing well. But you can count on her to say "I have no pride" 6-10 times a round - always when announcing that she'll be playing the forward tees, always after being conceded her first putt, and prefacing a handful of conservative decisions thereafter. It's probably a golf mantra I could learn some things from. Pete Dye always offered the player who repeats it a way to opt out of the teeth of the challenge, and he also gave you improved chances to do something memorable if you opted in to it. I think that's just about a perfect balance for fun golf.

[Chris Mavros]

Tour pros effectively banned the Stadium course from its rota for close to 30 years because of its difficulty.  At the time, Roger Maltbie said, ''I don't like his targets, those specific places you have to play the ball.  There are far too many undulations in fairways.  I think bunkers on many holes are far too penalizing, certainly for the length of the holes.  The sheer walls of bunkers are too steep and water running adjacent to fairways hole after hole is bad.  You might as well have out of bounds one foot off every one of those fairways.'' 

[/size]I love the fact that Pete didn't change anything about the course so they would come back.  [/size] 

[/size]Even considering this, I don't think his courses are or were too hard.  There was a period where he was hired to build courses that focused on a high degree of difficulty and what I think he did well is he made that challenge interesting, engaging and different.  Tour pros apparently didn't like the challenge presented at some of his courses yet they seem to have come around and realized there's a lot more going on than difficulty for the sheer sake of it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played 32 of his courses and, while many are difficult, all playable. You just have to be smart. He makes you want to steer it around the course, but if you do you'll fail. play the correct angles, stay out of his bunkers, and use you imagination around the greens and you'll be ok. While it is easy to pick out his courses when you play them each course stands alone. My biggest knock is that he has so many cape-type 18th holes on his courses, although you could probable now call it a signature hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Only played one at Promontory in Park City, which likely wasn't very representative of his work due to mountainous terrain.  I didn't find it difficult and the some of the holes were downright a blast to play.

[Tom_Doak]

Only played one at Promontory in Park City, which likely wasn't very representative of his work due to mountainous terrain.  I didn't find it difficult and the some of the holes were downright a blast to play.

Promontory, like Red Mountain Ranch mentioned earlier, is a Perry Dye golf course.  Pete might have visited once or twice, and didn't threaten to sue them for using his name on them.  But they are not like the 30 or 40 projects where Pete and Alice lived on site for a good chunk of the construction process.

[Matt Kardash]

Only played one at Promontory in Park City, which likely wasn't very representative of his work due to mountainous terrain.  I didn't find it difficult and the some of the holes were downright a blast to play.

Promontory, like Red Mountain Ranch mentioned earlier, is a Perry Dye golf course.  Pete might have visited once or twice, and didn't threaten to sue them for using his name on them.  But they are not like the 30 or 40 projects where Pete and Alice lived on site for a good chunk of the construction process.

Yeah, there are quite a few courses that have Pete's name on it but were basically designed by one of his son's. It's usually fairly obvious, because well, they straight up just aren't as good.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I remember Jim Colbert was on the TPC renovation committee.  His quote was, "That mound in the middle of the first green was okay.  Only problem was, Pete liked it so well, he did it 17 more times."  He also said it took 23 green surface renovations to get all 18 nearer to the pros liking.  (i.e., 5 had to be done twice, or some twice and 1 redone 3 times probably more likely)


I always played his Stonebridge Ranch course near DFW better than my handicap and score elsewhere.  I learned it was best just to aim away from the lakes and take the bogey, since statistically, aiming for the FW or green center caused more big numbers.


And, 2 more Dye stories, both from this course....


I had just opened my biz when he was doing the course and walked it with him one day during construction.  Owner asked how Pete was going to do something, and he pulled something like that "I have to walk this stream" as per above.  Basically, he walked around, pretending to look at the potential hole from all angles, until they tired of it and went away.  The minute they left, he sketched out what he was going to do in the dirt for me.  Always make it look more complicated than it really is!


Playing it with a client who had hit the water all day long, on the 18th, I bet lunch he wouldn't hit the water.  He aimed OB on the other side and ended up in the swimming pool, and the exact wording of the bet was debated for a bit.  No, he didn't end up in the lake, but he did end up in the water of the pool, so he agreed to buy lunch.


I'm told Alice went back there many years later and did some forward tee work, but I didn't go out there, not knowing it at the time.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't have any inside information and really love that Pete and Alice were a true partnership.  Question for those who seem to have worked quite a bit with the Dye's, obviously Tom certainly.  What % of Pete's courses do you think Alice was responsible for? Also where was her influence typically? Was it in early routing, or hazard placements, etc?

[Tom_Doak]

I don't have any inside information and really love that Pete and Alice were a true partnership.  Question for those who seem to have worked quite a bit with the Dye's, obviously Tom certainly.  What % of Pete's courses do you think Alice was responsible for? Also where was her influence typically? Was it in early routing, or hazard placements, etc?

I don't think it's possible to put a % on Alice's involvement.


She was not involved much in the routing of courses, as far as I know, but I don't have much background on when and how many of those were done.


She gets credit throughout the golf business of her role in promoting shorter forward tees and fewer forced carries, as she should, but I think that has always given people the impression that she was only involved in making the course playable for people and not about the shot values for better players, which is dead wrong.


As I said a year ago, when she passed away, Alice's main role was that she was the one person Pete would listen to for an honest assessment of how the course was going to play.  He would take an idea from anyone who came out on site for a feature of a hole, as I do, but at the end of the day it is up to the architect whether a hole needs final editing or not, and Alice was the only person Pete really looked to for a second opinion on that.  Is it too hard?  Too easy?  Too wide?  Does that green need to be softened?  Those are important calls, and Alice weighed in on them whenever she came out to the site.


P.B.'s college roommate Steve Lucciola worked on a couple of jobs that I did, and when we were working on Long Cove he said, "the hole is never finished until Miss Allie says it's okay".  So, if you had a feature you were fond of, you were always kind of walking on eggshells when Alice came out to see it.




Pete has credited Alice for a lot of particular features of his courses, including among others the boarded bunker on the 13th at Harbour Town, and the island green on the 17th at Sawgrass.  I'm a bit skeptical of the latter story, because I know there is an early drawing that shows the island green, but whether or not it was Alice's invention, there is no way Pete would have built it if Alice hadn't agreed it was reasonable.

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