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Steve_ Shaffer

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Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« on: January 07, 2020, 06:19:23 PM »


4 golf courses scheduled to open or reopen in 2020 offer a blueprint for how golf can reduce maintenance, add playability and boost the all-important fun factor



By the looks of some golf course projects to open – or reopen – in 2020, the industry is getting smart about what it offers to players. The key of late has been diversity and innovation. That runs the gamut, from repurposing a moribund municipal layout to creating an alternative, non-traditional golf course for a resort or restoring a venerable championship venue. Along the way, consumers will learn about some new architects doing interesting work, as well as some established names doing things differently.

Read more about the 4 courses Brad Klein profiles:


https://www.morningread.com/news-opinion/feature/2020-01-05/looking-back-for-a-glimpse-into-future-of-design
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 06:55:32 PM »
I don't know what the title of this thread had to do with the grab-bag hodgepodge of projects discussed in the article.

jeffwarne

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2020, 08:26:59 PM »
"In the emerging populist tradition of the American Longleaf Restoration Initiative, Crace has provided teeing grounds ranging from 4,000 to 7,005 yards, coded to correspond with players’ average distance off the tee."

any idea what the first sentence means?

I hate the second sentence-so if my 10 handicap long hitting son plays with a shorter hitting 10 handicap, they play separate tees?
What if he's a shite putter? Does he get bigger cups or flatter greens?

Maybe the actual future of golf will bring back courses being different than each other.

i,e, one is long, another short-rather than Burger King always delivering it your way...
or just go pick your tee-maybe even on every hole, but let's not have distance formulas for tee selection or we're never going to be "playing together" and the handicap system will get even more ridiculous.
[/color]
OT-sort've...Interestingly, as I played at Bandon the last 4 days, I never once saw anyone play anywhere but the "one set from the back" tees, despite there being tees all over the place (5 sets)
Our two ball played with 8 other random pair ups and everybody ranging from a scratch in his 30's, to me at 56, to my son at 20 to two accountants that were mid teen handicappers, to a 75 year old 25 handicap played these tees. Not once looking forward or backward did I see another group playing any other tees.Of course it helps that Bandon is well designed, but there are a few heroic carries for a 75 year old from those tees.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 08:43:15 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2020, 09:19:19 PM »
OT-sort've...Interestingly, as I played at Bandon the last 4 days, I never once saw anyone play anywhere but the "one set from the back" tees, despite there being tees all over the place (5 sets)  Our two ball played with 8 other random pair ups and everybody ranging from a scratch in his 30's, to me at 56, to my son at 20 to two accountants that were mid teen handicappers, to a 75 year old 25 handicap played these tees. Not once looking forward or backward did I see another group playing any other tees.
This is true.

We've been discussing how many sets of tees to have on our new course at Sand Valley, and the client favors five sets, because that's what they have on all of their courses, to give visitors a choice.  But their data shows that 85% of the men play from the same tee and 5% play from each of the other tees.

Even so, they want to provide the five tees so nobody feels they didn't have a tee that was catered to them - even if their buddies won't let them play from it :-X

Peter Pallotta

Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2020, 10:06:05 PM »
I can't defend my intense dislike for 5 sets of tees; I can't even rationally explain that dislike to myself. But I'm convinced that 5 sets of tees symbolize a 'value system' that runs contrary to both the spirit of the game and the aims of golf course architecture.
P


jeffwarne

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2020, 10:18:54 PM »
OT-sort've...Interestingly, as I played at Bandon the last 4 days, I never once saw anyone play anywhere but the "one set from the back" tees, despite there being tees all over the place (5 sets)  Our two ball played with 8 other random pair ups and everybody ranging from a scratch in his 30's, to me at 56, to my son at 20 to two accountants that were mid teen handicappers, to a 75 year old 25 handicap played these tees. Not once looking forward or backward did I see another group playing any other tees.
This is true.

We've been discussing how many sets of tees to have on our new course at Sand Valley, and the client favors five sets, because that's what they have on all of their courses, to give visitors a choice.  But their data shows that 85% of the men play from the same tee and 5% play from each of the other tees.

Even so, they want to provide the five tees so nobody feels they didn't have a tee that was catered to them - even if their buddies won't let them play from it :-X


Doesn't 5 sets of tees fly in the face of what you're trying to accomplish at SV on the smaller scale course?


Another semi OT-I have no problem with free form tees and unlevel tees providing aesthetics, drainage  variety and even the ability to shape shots off of them..
But many,many of the tees at bandon this weekend were placed on downhill lies(2-5 degrees), often right at the base of a much steeper hill(7-20 degrees) leading up to another level as in your right foot was much higher than your left.
It was especially noticeable on holes where a severe uphill carry was required such as #9 upper on Pacific and #3 at Old Macdonald.I merely teed my ball higher to compensate for lost launch but others in my group hit solid drives launching predictably lower than they expected, crashing into the hills.
Not once did I encounter an uphill lie on a tee(surely a tee could drain that way as well), and only once a sidehill lie, which I used to produce a large sweeping hook on the wind on #4 at OM.
Seemed as if the tees were often obviously sloped and draining towards the front of the tee (especially 9 at PD)but usually it was simply consistently sloppiness on the part of the setup crew, hell bent on the course playing shorter, and using the worst part of the tee nearly every time. What was a bit shocking was that it was the "one from the back" tee that EVERY player was playing and they were so poorly placed. The back tees looked well placed and the unused senior tees, which were frequently near where our tee had been placed, were usually in dry levelish spots as well.
It rained hard both nights before we played and maybe the idea was to pt the tees in the driest places, but at the base of a steeper slope wouldn't seem the best place for the tees 90% are playing.

Surprising at a place that gets nearly everything right.


edit-in respomse to a few PMs
I love Bandon and think it is the greatest gathering of courses on the planet and run very well.
I like the variety and the fact that I can't pick a favorite is telling.
I rarely like anything modern and am not a fan of corporate run anything(especially golf)...yet.....
it all works.
Seeing 500 daily players walking, carrying, pushing carts -n JANUARY!-is incredibly refreshing-especially with all the doom and gloom about golf
I only wrote the above about the tees because it surprised me-that's all.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 10:24:55 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 05:31:39 AM »
I can't defend my intense dislike for 5 sets of tees; I can't even rationally explain that dislike to myself. But I'm convinced that 5 sets of tees symbolize a 'value system' that runs contrary to both the spirit of the game and the aims of golf course architecture.
P


I am also a 5-sets-of-tees hater.... And I like Peter’s - albeit it rather loose - rationale. There are other more logical reasons to dislike 5 sets but the wrong value system is probably pretty accurate.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2020, 05:58:08 AM »
Interesting usage stats from Brandon.
5 sets of tees generally, probably not.
5 sets of tees on some holes where a forced carry for some is involved, that’s a different matter, especially as the occasional use forward 5th set probably doesn’t need to be very large or even have irrigation (bit like the back set probably don’t either).
Roll the ball back though and it should be the back set of tees that are no longer needed.

Atb

JMEvensky

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2020, 06:39:52 AM »

I can't defend my intense dislike for 5 sets of tees; I can't even rationally explain that dislike to myself. But I'm convinced that 5 sets of tees symbolize a 'value system' that runs contrary to both the spirit of the game and the aims of golf course architecture.
P



Agree completely. It may not represent the decline of western civilization, but it's pretty damn close.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2020, 04:28:19 PM »
I can't defend my intense dislike for 5 sets of tees; I can't even rationally explain that dislike to myself. But I'm convinced that 5 sets of tees symbolize a 'value system' that runs contrary to both the spirit of the game and the aims of golf course architecture.



Well, that value system is quite clearly the value system of commerce:  "The customer is always right"


[so, let them play from anywhere they want]


I'm okay with letting them play from wherever they want on a given hole.  I just think if you build a hole where people need five different options, it's a bad hole.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2020, 07:55:31 PM »
I can't defend my intense dislike for 5 sets of tees; I can't even rationally explain that dislike to myself. But I'm convinced that 5 sets of tees symbolize a 'value system' that runs contrary to both the spirit of the game and the aims of golf course architecture.
P



Peter,


Just out of curiosity, why don't you try to explain your opinion rationally, explain how it violates the spirit of the game or any specific aim of golf course architecture?  I would be interested in hearing the explanations.


And, also out of curiosity, is your dislike of five tees proportionally less than your dislike of 4? 3? 2? Or anything above "X" offends your senses?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2020, 08:18:56 PM »
Just a few points.  First it is highly unlikely that Brad wrote the headline.  Second, the Longleaf Restoration Initiative is an ecological program designed to bring back a particular type of pine in areas where they once flourished.  Third, what does the professed disdain for multiple tees say about the USGA's "Play It Forward" initiative?

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2020, 08:24:19 PM »
"In the emerging populist tradition of the American Longleaf Restoration Initiative, Crace has provided teeing grounds ranging from 4,000 to 7,005 yards, coded to correspond with players’ average distance off the tee."

any idea what the first sentence means?

He must have meant the Longleaf Tee Initiative, which is a completely different thing from the American Longleaf Restoration Initiative. The latter is about longleaf pines; the former is named for Longleaf Golf Club in Pinehurst.

I've only heard of the Longleaf Tee system because it's in use at the new reversible Bobby Jones course in Atlanta. I don't really understand it -- it doesn't seem any different from regular tees except there are more of them. They're numbered 1-8 rather than using colors or anything else (and yes, there are 8 separate sets) and there's no actual teeing grounds or tee markers. There's just a numbered plate in the ground (occasionally they're somewhat difficult to find), and you find the corresponding number you're playing from and tee up from somewhere around the plate. I think you're supposed to hit a few drives on the driving range and see where they land, then that tells you which numbered tee you're supposed to play. Again, I don't really get the point of it.

I'm not sure if the numbered plates with no actual markers/teeing ground is an "official" part of the Longleaf system or if that's just something they did for Bobby Jones, though.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 08:29:12 PM by Edward Glidewell »

David Harshbarger

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2020, 09:04:00 PM »
"In the emerging populist tradition of the American Longleaf Restoration Initiative, Crace has provided teeing grounds ranging from 4,000 to 7,005 yards, coded to correspond with players’ average distance off the tee."

any idea what the first sentence means?

He must have meant the Longleaf Tee Initiative, which is a completely different thing from the American Longleaf Restoration Initiative. The latter is about longleaf pines; the former is named for Longleaf Golf Club in Pinehurst.

I've only heard of the Longleaf Tee system because it's in use at the new reversible Bobby Jones course in Atlanta. I don't really understand it -- it doesn't seem any different from regular tees except there are more of them. They're numbered 1-8 rather than using colors or anything else (and yes, there are 8 separate sets) and there's no actual teeing grounds or tee markers. There's just a numbered plate in the ground (occasionally they're somewhat difficult to find), and you find the corresponding number you're playing from and tee up from somewhere around the plate. I think you're supposed to hit a few drives on the driving range and see where they land, then that tells you which numbered tee you're supposed to play. Again, I don't really get the point of it.

I'm not sure if the numbered plates with no actual markers/teeing ground is an "official" part of the Longleaf system or if that's just something they did for Bobby Jones, though.


Hmm....where have I heard of teeing system that was based on a individual assessment.....

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47711.msg1069297.html#msg1069297


The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Peter Pallotta

Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2020, 09:29:56 PM »
Jeff -
I don't know whether to thank you for your interest or not :)
Okay, with no claims made either for rationality or fair-mindedness, why I dislike the use of 5 sets of tees:
1. It is dishonest: it doesn't do what it clearly/ostensibly purports to do, which is to allow stronger and weaker golfers (i.e. longer and shorter hitters) to 'play the same course' and to engage with it in roughly the same way. Obviously (no matter how many 'colour codes' are used to try to disguise the truth): a drive from the back tees and a drive from the front tees may land in the same place, but the person who hit the former will have a 7 iron left while the person who hit the latter will need a 2 hybrid. 
2. It has proven to be in every sense (save as pandering to the 'customer') wholly unnecessary, and thus (unnecessarily) wasteful: today's foremost client's own surveys/stats indicate that 85% of male golfers use the *same* one set of tees, which finding aligns perfectly with my own experiences as a recreational golfer.
3.  It has become ubiquitous and non-course-specific, the very opposite of a targeted/tailored approach to golf course design: from an 80s Nicklaus resort course to the latest gems from Coore & Crenshaw, from a 6300 yard course to one the stretches to over 7500 yards, they all have (at least) 5 sets of tees -- a 'formalized' approach in the context of the only game that has always celebrated its 'varied fields of play'.
4. It 'says' in language subtle enough to be missed that the 200-300 acres of nature (i.e. the golf course) is intended to conform to *our* wishes instead of asking us, for those brief hours that we play it, to accommodate ourselves to *it* -- thus serving only to reinforce our egos and sense of entitlement instead of curtailing them as part of the lessons and joys of the game. 
5. It is rife with unintended consequences: from fitting hand-in-glove with the equipment manufacturers and their constant feeding (and simultaneous creating) of our seemingly insatiable lusts for extra distance...to a fostering of the card and pencil mentality (in the broadest sense of the term) and a dampening of enthusiasm for/validity off the handicap-based-match-play format...to an ever-expanding and ever-more intricate network of cart paths (at all but the most desirable 'walking only' boutique courses) 
6. Hide it as well as you can, it is ugly and busy instead of beautiful and calm     
7. It is, as Tom notes, the value system of commerce. You don't have to be a socialist to wish that, on a golf course at least, the value systems of creativity (and quality design) and the child-like wonder of play might instead come out on top.   
8. It represents a faux-democratization of the game/experience: celebrating not the (shared) freedom that golfers of all skill sets have to each find their own unique way to play the course (and the inherent value of each of those individual approaches) but instead highlighting and actually categorizing the *differences* between us and suggesting that some should play the game 'from here' and others 'from there'...ironically, all in the name/service of 'equality'. 

Well, that's all I can think of right now. I think some of the adjectives/descriptions/rationales I used are pretty clearly at odds with the spirit of the game. To your other question: you'd be surprised how many courses (modest regional ones) I play that still get by with only two sets of tees, i.e. the back and the front. I'm fine with 3 sets, but only because I'm a reasonable fellow :)
P
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 09:35:56 PM by Peter Pallotta »

David Harshbarger

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2020, 09:44:23 PM »
Peter, that is awesome, and thank you for bringing this topic up.  Jeff's rejoinder for you to be more specific got me thinking, too and much along the same lines:


1.) It panders to the illusion of choice; that while we (humans) often say we want the option of choice, we also often are unsatisfied regardless of the choice made 
2.) In almost all cases multiple tee play to only one dimension of golf: length
3.) The "back tees" invite the mentality that only by playing them do you play the "full" or "real" course
4.) As Peter says they feed the arms-race mindset: longer is better


And then a bunch of things that Peter said far more eloquently than I could about cart paths, bending nature to man vs. sublimating oneself to nature, etc.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Mark_Fine

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2020, 10:16:18 PM »
Unfortunately, very few courses can be like Sebonack Golf Club which essentially has an infinite “set of tees”!  As most here know, Sebonack doesn’t have "formal" ones.  That said, I just looked at one of my scorecards from a round there and the Sebonack card has “SEVEN” handicap course/slope ratings from “SEVEN” different teeing distances.  This must have been Nicklaus pushing for that vs Tom Doak ;) 


I love the idea of flexibility and letting people play from different “starting points”.  While I realize that the far majority of daily play on most courses is usually from one or two tees/starting points, that is ok especially if you have the ability to vary those starting points around. 


If I am doing anything different these days it is adding shorter teeing options vs adding longer ones.  And if that helps make the game more fun or more interesting or helps speed up play, and/or gets more golfers to play the course, then I am all for it.  Think about the other extreme - one starting point for everyone on every hole!  That would really excite golfers to come play there  :(   


Speaking of Bandon since someone mentioned it; anyone ever play any of Mike Keiser's "hidden tees" that he had built in some really cool spots?  I wonder why he has those ;)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 10:36:50 PM by Mark_Fine »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2020, 01:56:55 AM »
I’m ok with one extra / forward set of tees once you place two markers at the start of the fairway for young juniors / really short hitters. Completely hidden, not ugly, no extra cost.


Quite a few British clubs do this to attract the very young.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2020, 03:32:27 AM »
Peter:


That was a wonderful rant.  But, now you must prepare to be chastised by the tiresome guardians of conventional wisdom - or, what passes for "wisdom" in the golf business.


I see one of them has already weighed in.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2020, 03:50:02 AM »
Unfortunately, very few courses can be like Sebonack Golf Club which essentially has an infinite “set of tees”!  As most here know, Sebonack doesn’t have "formal" ones.  That said, I just looked at one of my scorecards from a round there and the Sebonack card has “SEVEN” handicap course/slope ratings from “SEVEN” different teeing distances.  This must have been Nicklaus pushing for that vs Tom Doak ;) 


I love the idea of flexibility and letting people play from different “starting points”.  While I realize that the far majority of daily play on most courses is usually from one or two tees/starting points, that is ok especially if you have the ability to vary those starting points around. 


If I am doing anything different these days it is adding shorter teeing options vs adding longer ones.  And if that helps make the game more fun or more interesting or helps speed up play, and/or gets more golfers to play the course, then I am all for it.  Think about the other extreme - one starting point for everyone on every hole!  That would really excite golfers to come play there  :(   


Speaking of Bandon since someone mentioned it; anyone ever play any of Mike Keiser's "hidden tees" that he had built in some really cool spots?  I wonder why he has those ;)




Mark:


Actually Jack Nicklaus strongly advocated at the start of the project that Sebonack should not have any sets of tees between 7400 yards and 6400, as it just encouraged the members to play the course from too far back and leave themselves with approach shots they couldn't handle.  The client didn't listen to him, either.   :D


Also, pretty much all of Mr. Keiser's "hidden tees" at Pacific Dunes [and even a couple of mine] were long ago abandoned due to lack of interest.


That's the real problem with the "five [or six] sets of tees" folks -- not only do they insist on having a tee for themselves, they want to play the "real" hole, except not from the real distance!  They don't have any stomach for variety or for something unconventional, such as a tee that turns a par-4 into a par-5, or a par-3. 


When we build a tee from a cool, different angle, instead of rotating the men's tee there for one or two days a week, they will assign it to be a "green" tee and then only 5% of the golfers will ever use it -- and not for long, because the "green tee players" will complain that they have to play the hole at a different angle from everyone else.


I am all in favor of building alternate tees on certain holes, in places where they make for an interesting option.  I'm all in favor of variety.  But building a tee every 30 yards along the way from the back tee to the green is not about variety, it's just pandering to the customer.




Sean_A

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2020, 04:32:52 AM »
Golf these days is as much about pandering to the customer as anything. That isn't at all a bad thing... in the right measure. In the rush to create (but ultimately fail) experiences for all levels of golfers, less than ideal, often times far less than ideal courses are built. In effect, riding centric monsters are often the result. All sense of place and charm is tossed aside for the mythical one course fits all ideal. That isn't to say more tees aren't welcome when necessary due to a carry or when an interesting different angle alternative is available. It's the repeated mantra of 150 to 300 yard long tee sets which crosses the pandering line...which I think will have a long term negative impact on the game. We should be looking for ways to downsize courses, use less inputs, offer affordable green fees, encourage walking and women to play and to create highly individual courses. I don't see how mega tee golf encourages any of the above.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Greg Hohman

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2020, 08:13:45 AM »
Peter, do I have your permission to reprint your 8 points on my golf bag?
newmonumentsgc.com

Tim Martin

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2020, 09:01:08 AM »
Give me back, member and ladies and that’s sufficient. If you want more than the member yardage and less than the back tee yardage have it with a hybrid of the two. I don’t remember back in the day anybody playing casual matches from different tees and the three tee setup would eliminate much of that going forward. Usually giving shots and also allowing your opponent to play up is a recipe for lightening your wallet.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2020, 10:25:34 AM »
 :)  Greg, you certainly do, but please edit it down into your own words, or use Tom's or Tim's or David's words instead: I re-read the post this morning and was aghast at how wordy & rambling it is. Man, I really need to start posting my 3rd drafts around here instead of my first ones -- I've made my living as a writer, but I'm actually terrible at it: I'm the writing equivalent to 8 set of tees!   
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 11:03:35 AM by Peter Pallotta »

jeffwarne

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Re: Looking back for a glimpse into future of design
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2020, 10:30:27 AM »
Just a few points.  First it is highly unlikely that Brad wrote the headline.  Second, the Longleaf Restoration Initiative is an ecological program designed to bring back a particular type of pine in areas where they once flourished.  Third, what does the professed disdain for multiple tees say about the USGA's "Play It Forward" initiative?


Thanks for answering the initial question-I googled it but I just don't see the correlation.


The USGA's promotion of "tee it forward" is another knee jerk response to the root cause of the loss of scale-poorly regulated equipment which has substantially and disproportionately widened the scale gap between high speed players and lower speed
players at the expense of pace, companionship, safety, ego and expense
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 11:16:16 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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