[Tony_Muldoon]

https://golfchronicle.wordpress.com/2020/01/05/one-shot-holes-by-molly-gourlay/#comments


Fine article and that site is a great resource searching out many articles unknown to me. Her thoughts on 2 shotters to follow.
 
Molly Gourlay was an excellent golfer and as an architect is best known for her work at Ballybunion with Tom Simpson.


And she is still venerated by the Surrey Golf Union.
http://www.slcga.org/Content/Uploads/PDFs/HonoursBoard/molly%20gourlay.pdf




(Discovered site thanks to Adam Lawrence )

[Niall C]

Tony

I can't recall where I saw it recently but she also wrote articles about 2 shot and 3 shot holes, probably in the same series.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Lee is a fine researcher and turns up a bunch of interesting stuff. This is no exception.

[Niall C]

Adam,


When I posted earlier I hadn't been able to open the link. I've now opened it and note that the article on the two shot holes is to follow. As I previously said I came across the series of articles recently and I think it was while I was searching on Britishnewspaperarchives.


If I am correct and that is where the articles have come from, should there not be some accreditation in terms of the source, both for the website and the newspaper it was taken from ? Even if there is no copyright issue ( I note the article is from 1938 which I think means it is no longer copyright due to age but presumably there might still be an issue depending on when Molly Gourlay passed away) is there not some appropriate etiquette for this ? Not trying to pick a fight over this but note you often pull up Brian when he posts a written article rather than a link which effectively is what your man Lee seems to have done here.


For future reference, what's the correct procedure ?


Niall 

[Duncan Cheslett]

I found his blog some months ago while researching Claude Harris for my piece on Bury GC and Lee has indeed turned up some very interesting stuff.


However, his decision not to reference or credit any of his sources does concern me a little.

[Peter Flory]

Reading back through all those articles was very interesting. 

[Tommy Naccarato]

Adam,


When I posted earlier I hadn't been able to open the link. I've now opened it and note that the article on the two shot holes is to follow. As I previously said I came across the series of articles recently and I think it was while I was searching on Britishnewspaperarchives.


If I am correct and that is where the articles have come from, should there not be some accreditation in terms of the source, both for the website and the newspaper it was taken from ? Even if there is no copyright issue ( I note the article is from 1938 which I think means it is no longer copyright due to age but presumably there might still be an issue depending on when Molly Gourlay passed away) is there not some appropriate etiquette for this ? Not trying to pick a fight over this but note you often pull up Brian when he posts a written article rather than a link which effectively is what your man Lee seems to have done here.


For future reference, what's the correct procedure ?


Niall

Niall, I’m all for crediting sources as one finds them, but I disagree with you that Lee needs to tell us or you anything where he finds these articles of interest.  He doesn’t have to account to you.


If ephemera isn’t being seen or presented then what’s the use even having a discussion of Golf Architecture’s incredible past!  Yes, that notion is ridiculous!  But so is taking someone to task for something he has great passion for the discussion, which Lee is a GREAT student of the Game, delivering the message if what was and could be again!


So why do you have an issue with it? 


Would you rather this stuff be sitting in a library’s storage which would make it a target for disposal when the need for more room to store things comes up?  Because that’s what happens! Don’t believe me, go look at the library at LA84, which is now event space.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Tommy,


I just find the idea of reproducing an old magazine article without mentioning which publication it came from a little odd.


I’m sure that Lee is beyond reproach as a researcher and welcome his valuable contributions. However, if we are blindly to accept all unreferenced work as genuine we could potentially be building up problems for the future.


It has been known for unscrupulous people to forge historical documents, even in such an arcane area as golf course architecture!


😉

[Sean_A]

Naccers

I agree with Dunc etc. It certainly couldn't hurt to provide the source material. That opinion is not a criticism of Lee, just a suggestion. Any researcher looking at this article would certainly want to go to the source to confirm all is as it seems.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Tommy


You clearly missed the bit where I said that I didn't want to pick a fight. My query to Adam was on the correct etiquette and indeed legality of reproducing articles and the reason it was addressed to Adam was because firstly he had commented on this thread and those comments seemed at odds to comments he'd made elsewhere in what I'd perceived as similar situations, but primarily I addressed the question to Adam because as a fellow researcher I want to know the answer and Adam as a professional writer and journalist would no more than most what that answer is. However if you want to have a bust up, go at it but I'll not be joining in.


Adam,


I've checked my notes and the articles appear to be from Golf Illustrated Dec 1938 and Feb and March 1939 which unfortunately aren't on Britishnewspaperarchives, and how I wish they were. Notwithstanding that, what's the proper/legal thing to do when posting articles off websites/publications ?


Niall

[Tommy Naccarato]

Niall, You’re not trying to pick a fight, but you name someone you have little information about is perfect grounds for questioning?


Yeah right!



Here is the fix: You’re not a researcher. Stop thinking your curing cancer for unearthing information buried in some internet archive.  You’re someone who is just looking to find history of person’s, places & things that are interesting to some and completely boring to others. Get over yourself!  (I know this from far more experience on more levels then you do.  Please, take my advice here!)


Like you, I love this subject matter a lot, but I’ve also seen it destroy the best of kinships.  I don’t think Lee is doing anything less then you, myself and anyone else are and that’s finding interesting things lost in Golf’s past.  More then anything, worry about bigger things in Life because 99% of what you dig up is going to be useless other then stuff for us to gawk over. 


You should probably apologize to Lee for questioning his passions while you were mistakenly trying to thwart them.

[Niall C]

Tommy

I don't know Lee, but I wish him all the best etc etc. and yes I think I can fairly say I'm a researcher in relation to gca given the inordinate amount of time I spend looking through archives, old mags, publications and other primary material. Maybe I don't get paid for it but nobody pays me for golf either and I'm still a golfer. I also use the term "researcher" in the context of a website dedicated to golf course architecture where folk are into different aspects of gca and mine happens to be more the history side of gca.

Adam

If you are reading this, don't bother responding. Tommy seems intent in cranking things up to Defcon 5. You can put me right the next time we meet.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Short two shotter's now added.


https://outlook.live.com/mail/0/deeplink?version=2020010602.11&popoutv2=1



(Note to Woking - need to clear more space on LHS of 4th. At the moment it's barely wider than the RHS.)




Also her (slight miss) quotation is most apt to strategic architecture. Its source would have been very familiar to her audience, sadly less so today.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip6czeTuNEU




Longer two shot holes




https://golfchronicle.wordpress.com/2020/01/17/two-shot-holes-by-molly-gourlay/

[Duncan Cheslett]

Short two shotter's now added.


https://outlook.live.com/mail/0/deeplink?version=2020010602.11&popoutv2=1

I see that Lee has this time credited the source of the article. Golf Illustrated 1938


Is this Lee Patterson the same Lee Patterson I played with for the MacKenzie Society against the Colt Association at Camberley Heath maybe five years ago?  A London cabby from Stanmore GC if I remember correctly...

[David Harshbarger]

The two-shot article links directly here:

https://golfchronicle.wordpress.com/2020/01/11/short-two-shot-holes-by-molly-gourlay/

[Tim_Cronin]

Adam,


When I posted earlier I hadn't been able to open the link. I've now opened it and note that the article on the two shot holes is to follow. As I previously said I came across the series of articles recently and I think it was while I was searching on Britishnewspaperarchives.


If I am correct and that is where the articles have come from, should there not be some accreditation in terms of the source, both for the website and the newspaper it was taken from ? Even if there is no copyright issue ( I note the article is from 1938 which I think means it is no longer copyright due to age but presumably there might still be an issue depending on when Molly Gourlay passed away) is there not some appropriate etiquette for this ? Not trying to pick a fight over this but note you often pull up Brian when he posts a written article rather than a link which effectively is what your man Lee seems to have done here.


For future reference, what's the correct procedure ?


Niall

Yes, there should have been a credit.
First, it's the polite thing to do.
Second, it's the legally proper thing to do (whether out of copyright or not; and if in copyright, some kind of consideration to the holder is in order – and might have been negotiated). I wouldn't want one of my stories reprinted in whole (or a large chunk of one, for that matter) without a little something for the effort – if I allowed it at all.
Third, it allows us to look further for more goodies.

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