News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Shell's WWOG marathon
« on: December 30, 2019, 08:31:36 PM »
For US viewing, there is a day long marathon tomorrow. Cape Breton Highlands, Gleneagles (Kings?)., Mauna Kea, Turnberry, Killarney amongst the courses.

V. Kmetz

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2019, 08:52:45 PM »
For US viewing, there is a day long marathon tomorrow. Cape Breton Highlands, Gleneagles (Kings?)., Mauna Kea, Turnberry, Killarney amongst the courses.


Last week, they had Peter Thompson and Gary Player from Melbourne.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mike_Clayton

  • Total Karma: 14
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2019, 11:38:40 PM »
Very odd hearing Peter Thomson referred to as 'the 4- time British Open Champion'
Too all in Australia he was knows as '5 Times' Post 1965 of course.

Pat Burke

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2019, 11:42:05 PM »
Peters held hand up extending 5 fingers in answer to a debate was always fun!!

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2019, 10:38:30 PM »
Would there be a market to resurrect this format? I would love to watch 2 people playing casual rounds on world class courses. The clubs wouldn’t need to worry about excessive crowds and could maintain an air of exclusivity. Love listening to the Squire and Jack Whittaker

[/size]
[/size][size=78%] It was good enough for pine valley in the 60s[/size]





David Harshbarger

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2019, 11:25:32 PM »
Having just finished reading The Match by Mark Frost, I can't think of how different the times were then.  Golf, and professional golf, were ascendent really for the first time. And while the world was getting smaller and more connected there was quite a bit of space in the entertainment world for globe-trotting and exotica.  Probably most importantly, color television was taking over living rooms and there was a unique need for quality, color content.


Finally, the marquee golfers weren't making the kind of life changing sums they earn today.


Those are all good reasons not to expect a reprise, but I would have to think there's still a thirst from the public for something like the WWOG.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ryan Van Culin

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2020, 07:23:36 AM »

I would love to see WWOG return. It was something that really got me excited about golf when I was first starting to play about 10 years ago. I agree that the amount of money Tour players make is probably the biggest obstacle. How much would you have to pay to get Rory and Brooks to Cape Wickham or Tara Iti?


I definitely think it would be better to pay them a few million to get a match on a course most people will never see than pay them an appearance fee to play a Gary Player course in the Middle East.


I also have this sadistic idea that I'd love to see a couple pros play a local muni from the regular men's tees. Just to see how they'd destroy a 6,000 yard course that golfers play regularly.

BHoover

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2020, 09:02:00 AM »
I would love to see WWOG return, but my dream would be a series of matches using hickories or vintage clubs. The ideal host would be someone like Peter Kessler. The idea of watching the game’s best players trying to figure out the best classic courses with vintage clubs is something I would find absolutely fascinating.

Of course it probably will never happen. But one can dream.

Something like this exhibition between Dave Marr and Tony Jacklin at Prestwick with 1870s clubs and balls.
https://youtu.be/nDN6KWp2WNY
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 09:05:36 AM by BHoover »

Joe Bausch

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2020, 09:51:38 AM »
Having watched a bunch of these shows the last few days begs the question:  when did that real handsy style of putting go away?  Gradually, or was there one or two players that came along with what is basically the current stroke and others followed?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Harshbarger

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2020, 09:53:30 AM »
I think some of the players took at whack at Greenbrier or White Sulphur Springs with hickories a few years ago. The televised version wasn't overly inspiring though.  Every feels obliged to comment on how supposedly brittle they think the clubs will be.  And no one is playing like they really mean it. 


Maybe a different tack would be if one of the tour pros with more name recognition than tour prospects did a golf discovery show/adventure show, a la Anthony Bourdain, that would be catchy and have legs.  Make it a travel/golf/people of the game type show.


Here's the pitch:  "It's 'No Reservations' for golf....we'll call it 'Tee Times'.  Famous and funny pro travels around the world to meet and play golf in the most interesting and unique clubs.  Every show features a locale, and explores the golf culture, from the high end clubs to the munis, practice ranges, indoor clubs, and the cool local variations.  The feature of the week is a match where famous and funny pro challenges a hot local team to a match, played for charity."
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 01:09:56 PM by David Harshbarger »
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -9
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2020, 12:40:09 PM »
They already tried it and most on here poo-pooed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Match:_Tiger_vs._Phil

P.S.  Its been said on here a million times, as much as we on GCA.com would love to tune in to see epic venues, we are a teeny minority and the powers that be could give a damn.

David Harshbarger

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2020, 01:22:23 PM »
Royal Melbourne got a nod as part of the success of the President's Cup broadcast. (Emphasis added).

Quote
If it seemed like all of Twitter was glued to late-night Presidents Cup broadcasts this past week – living, dying and Tweeting with every putt – it’s because it was. Stellar play, a close score, plenty of drama and a spectacular venue all contributed to a Golf Channel broadcast that culminated with a peak viewership of 2.15 million viewers per minute during the high point (11:15-11:30 p.m. ET) in Saturday night’s singles matches.

Golfweek 12-16-2019

Points to a simple formula: instead of one light-hearted match between stars, a dozen+ matches over multiple days with the game's biggest stars!  Now, if they can only find more courses like Melbourne....
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2020, 01:23:11 PM »
Next to no off season.  All rounds of PGA Tour televised.  European Tour televised.  Much of the LPGA televised.  WWOG, All Star Golf, Big Three Golf, CBS Golf Classic all filled voids that no longer exist.  No market.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: -7
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2020, 02:20:42 PM »
I also have this sadistic idea that I'd love to see a couple pros play a local muni from the regular men's tees. Just to see how they'd destroy a 6,000 yard course that golfers play regularly.
I think you'd end up being surprised at what they'd shoot, and I don't mean in the "62 every time" direction.


Having watched a bunch of these shows the last few days begs the question:  when did that real handsy style of putting go away?  Gradually, or was there one or two players that came along with what is basically the current stroke and others followed?
When green speeds got faster. It's tougher to control distance.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ryan Van Culin

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2020, 03:22:15 PM »

What do you reckon they'd shoot Erik? I'm just curious.


The example I always gave was a local muni where most of the par 4's are in the 330-380 range. They would be taking, I assume, the kinds of risks us mortals take on the video games.


Also, the course rating is 68.x, and they are mostly in the +6 to +9 range, right?


That reminds me, I did hear a story from a guy who was a local college player. There is a certain PGA Tour journeyman who lives in my area. Never won, but mostly kept his card and now plays Champions Tour. Anyway, the college guy said he thought he was doing really well, sitting at -5 through 9 holes, until he realized he was 2 behind the Tour player. Seems like they never miss a shot.

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2020, 05:49:36 PM »

What do you reckon they'd shoot Erik? I'm just curious.


The example I always gave was a local muni where most of the par 4's are in the 330-380 range. They would be taking, I assume, the kinds of risks us mortals take on the video games.


Also, the course rating is 68.x, and they are mostly in the +6 to +9 range, right?


That reminds me, I did hear a story from a guy who was a local college player. There is a certain PGA Tour journeyman who lives in my area. Never won, but mostly kept his card and now plays Champions Tour. Anyway, the college guy said he thought he was doing really well, sitting at -5 through 9 holes, until he realized he was 2 behind the Tour player. Seems like they never miss a shot.


Played Dismal River Red a few days after Gary Woodland was there with some pals. If I remember correctly he shot 58 or 59.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: -7
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2020, 10:35:56 AM »
What do you reckon they'd shoot Erik? I'm just curious.
You can just run the numbers to figure out what they'd shoot, and it's not as low as you think, on average.

It's off topic here but in my experience everyone tends to act like they'll go out and shoot 62 like it's nothing all the time. They can, but more often, their average is 68 or 67 or so. The hole is still only 4.25".

Also, the course rating is 68.x, and they are mostly in the +6 to +9 range, right?
Three things there.
  • How many courses play from the back tees to only 68.0? The back tees at the public course I play most often are 74.0. The back tees at the municipal course in Erie are 73.8 (par 73). Even the white tees at a par 69 are 70.8. (http://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=17977)
  • Most PGA Tour pros are about +5 to +6.
  • Even if they were +9, that's the best 8 of their last 20 rounds.
I'll leave you with this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html. Steve Marino shot 68 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2007/07/02/GR2007070201510.html).

There are plusses and minuses. The greens, the conditions of bunkers and the grass and so on are minuses. The rough, the softness, the length are plusses. But generally, people vastly over-estimate how low players would score.

They could go ridiculously low, but they can also shoot 73. Unless you watch a lot of PGA Tour golf in person, you only see the guys playing the best most weeks (plus Tiger).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ryan Van Culin

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2020, 11:50:15 AM »

Ok, once again, I was a little off. (this is getting to be a theme of mine.) The course rating at Clear Creek GC in Bristol, VA (just the nearest muni) is 69.7/128 from the whites, which is roughly 6,000 yards.
At the time I made the claim, Bubba Watson was a +7.7, and I made the argument that he would probably drive most of the par 4's, and have wedge into the par 5s, and the par 3s are all wedge shots. Anyway, I see your point.
So, a 63 would a differential of 7.58 is my math is (not likely) correct. And that would be, like you said, his best 40% of rounds.
I agree, but I've always found it an interesting discussion, and nothing is off-topic in a golf forum, right?

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -9
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2020, 12:01:25 PM »
Erik,


I think you make some good points, but I think PGATour courses are much tougher during tournament week as compared to when they are evaluated for slope/rating purposes.


- 4-5 inch rough
- Greens Stimping at 2-3 faster
- Tucked Pins
- Narrowed fairways
- Shaved slopes into hazards
Etc


As compared to the average muni which plays the same way year round with low rough, 8-9 stimping greens, pins in the middle of greens, and wide fairways.

Edward Glidewell

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2020, 01:15:55 PM »
Erik,


I think you make some good points, but I think PGATour courses are much tougher during tournament week as compared to when they are evaluated for slope/rating purposes.


- 4-5 inch rough
- Greens Stimping at 2-3 faster
- Tucked Pins
- Narrowed fairways
- Shaved slopes into hazards
Etc


As compared to the average muni which plays the same way year round with low rough, 8-9 stimping greens, pins in the middle of greens, and wide fairways.


I think this is a misconception a lot of people have regarding run of the mill PGA Tour events -- they're often not harder than they are for regular play, and are sometimes easier because they are trying to encourage birdies.


They definitely make the courses harder for majors and maybe a few of the marquee events, and I can't speak across the board (I could see them making resort courses harder), but I have a lot of experience with a private club that hosts a PGA event and the course set-up is generally easier for the pros than it is for day to day play by members.


The rough is higher for sure (although the members end up playing with that rough for at least a month themselves), but the greens don't stimp any higher than they do for member play and the pin positions are significantly easier than the ones used in regular member play. The tour specifically requires pins to be set in a flat area to minimize three putts whereas the members often play with pins right up against the edges of slopes. The tour doesn't allow the pins to be in those positions for the tournament. Additionally, they move the tees around a lot and never come close to playing it at the full yardage (I've seen them playing from the senior tees on one of the par 3s), despite the fact that it's a pretty short course by tour standards.


Plus, as an aside unrelated to tournament set-up, I think tour players would really struggle putting on bumpy greens that were stimping at an 8 or 9. They're not used to playing on slow greens and a lot of them throw fits if the conditions aren't what they consider perfect.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 01:21:25 PM by Edward Glidewell »

Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2020, 02:59:28 PM »
I taped a few of the matches and have only watched Knudsen/Balding at Cape Breton Highlands.  Hats off to Ian Andrew for his work bringing the course back up to snuff.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: -7
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2020, 03:16:44 PM »
- Greens Stimping at 2-3 faster
- Narrowed fairways
- Tucked Pins
I don't think those are all that accurate. And players (of all ability levels) generally putt better on slightly faster greens, so a PGA Tour player playing some bumpy stimp 8 or 9 green HURTS their ability to score. Their miss rate inside of 10 or 12' goes up a good bit.

Plus, the course rating stuff doesn't generally scale very well. People perform optimally at different ranges. A guy who can shoot 72 from a 73.2 rated set of tees often can't pull off a 66 from the 66.7 tees. That goes against a lot of what I say about how good the course rating system is for how simple it is, but basically, at the extremes, it can be a bit goofy and really favor playing from certain tees. (Just as the guy who is an 18 from 5800 might not play to anywhere near an 18 differential from 7200. The rating/slope system tries, but… the game of golf has a ton of variations.)

The simple truth is that an average PGA Tour player is not going to break 65 from the back tees at most courses, on average, while I often see people predicting scores of 57, 60, 62… They'll happen, but not often.

I think this is a misconception a lot of people have regarding run of the mill PGA Tour events -- they're often not harder than they are for regular play, and are sometimes easier because they are trying to encourage birdies.

This too.

Again, at the end of the day, the hole is still only 4.25" in size, and PGA Tour players average over par on par threes, so it's not like they're going to birdie half of the par fours and eagle the par fives all that often.




Back to the topic… I caught a bit of the Paul Azinger match against Jesper, and some of the Payne Stewart match against… eh, I forget. Oh, Nick Price. Contrast in swing styles (or at least tempo/rhythm) there. I recorded a bunch of others for a snowy/rainy day.


It's great to see some of the courses on WWOG, but I do wish there were more aerial shots. Still, it's better than a typical PGA Tour event… and they didn't have drones in the 80s.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 03:21:26 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2020, 03:43:02 PM »
I caught some of the matches played at Doral and PGA National, neither one a place I'd necessarily care to watch in today's version. I was amazed by how interesting those courses looked before the area was developed.


If they were still in their natural minimalist state would the GCA crowd love them, or would the design still be uninspiring?

Dave McCollum

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2020, 05:32:41 AM »
So long ago I don't remember the details accurately, I read an account of the production of WWOG.  It was a slog.  The typical show took 2 days to film--9 holes per day that took all day.  They'd film a hole then move all the camera and audio equipment and crew to the next hole while the golfers, I assume, hung out until they were ready.  It sounded like the making of a TV show or commercial rather than a golf match.  I suppose to keep production costs to a set budget.  Back in those days tour pros often made more money doing exhibitions and corporate outings than collecting tournament purses.  As somebody pointed out, very different economics today.


I think it would be an interesting production puzzle to sort out in today's market.  Probably the sponsor couldn't afford tour pros, but club pros and top amateurs (payed as SAG entertainers) might work if the venues were world class.  Sent in the drone crew to shoot the course/architecture in advance.  On match day, deploy the camera crews to leapfrog the match conducted in more or less real time.  The golf course is the real star, mix in competitive historical footage, tell its story, highlight the architect, explain its culture and evolution, and cut it down to an hour TV show.  Do it well and it will be a golf classic that will will run forever on the Golf Channel during the winter filler season or weekdays the rest of the year.


I know most golfers don't give a sh*t about architecture, but nobody has made much effort to make it exciting or intellectually interesting.  We may well be golf geeks and a tiny fraction of the golfing world, but many of us could provide interesting suggestions for content and story lines.  Line up the production bucks, get some top courses to agree to be featured, do a good job on few pilot shows, and, who knows, we could have a larger voice.  The producers could launch a thread on golfcourseatlas.com and other architecture sites about any revered venue and have hundreds of content suggestions from around the world within a few days.  Pay our best guys and gals a pittance to be on an editorial board to pick out the best ideas, do some research, basically what we do for nothing now, and hash out a script outline.  It may well be group think, but it seems much more productive than a lot of the crap/ratings we argue about every day.  We could actually pitch our ideas to the general golfer population instead of preaching to the choir.


I know nobody at the Golf Channel thinks this will work.  But has it actually been tried by talented people?  In theory, the production team could be very small, augmented by at least 1,500 volunteer script consultants and a few paid editorial experts.  Yes, it will be like herding cats and egos will get bruised if even modestly successful.  However most golfers don't read books, DG's, or blogs but will watch an hour of TV. Shorter half-hour versions could be done for notable courses that, in my view, would be superior to the Golf Central pre-game drivel they have now.  A sort of viewers guide to a golf tournament.  Who really wants to see a golfer warming up and listen to Brandel Chamblee BS about his swing?  Pay one of our architects to describe the challenge.          [size=78%]     [/size]

Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Shell's WWOG marathon
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2020, 12:49:08 PM »

      Twenty years ago WWOG was at Crosswater near Bend, OR for a match between Fred Couples and John Daly. I splurged for the $60 ticket. They used multiple mobile camera crews and it didn't seem like play was slowed by production all that much. The original format was a 1 hour show and some holes were shown by maps, By 2000 they had increased to a 90 minute show, not bad for 140 golf shots, but they somehow edited out the 15th where Daly's golf went on a walkabout.
      I would love to see one at Silvies Ranch or The Loop if they featured the holes as much as the players.