[Ronald Montesano]

I enjoy a holy text as much as the next zealot. I also enjoy questioning a holy text. I may have more beef (or tempeh, or satan) to add to this thread, but I'll begin with these three complaints about the 147 Custodians tab.

-Took me to number #103, to find an affordable, public option;
-Waited until #120, to find a municipal course;
-Text adjacent to #121-Glens Falls, might as well have read "I mailed this one in";

Join me in kvetching or counter me with salient conjecture. Salient is my word for December 28th.

[Tim Martin]

RoMo-I agree with your take about the text next to Glens Falls. It deserves better.

[JESII]

How often does Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives intersect with the Michelin list?

[Garland Bayley]

How often does Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives intersect with the Michelin list?

Fairly often in Singapore, where Michelin has been awarding stars to the Singapore equivalent.

[Ronald Montesano]

How often does Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives intersect with the Michelin list?

Well, ahoi palloi. Did someone scratch your anchor? Let's head on over to the Flying Wasp; first drink is on me.

Your understanding of what Ran might have intended, should have nothing to do with either of those lists. Here's the link: http://golfclubatlas.com/147-custodians-of-the-game-year1/

More importantly, read this RIGHT NOW and disassociate yourself from that Michelin goo (sneaky trick, Ran, making the page unclickable for the right-click...had to go back door on the source code to copy-paste this):


A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.
A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.
A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.
A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.
A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.
A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous greenkeeping.
A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.
A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.

[Tom_Doak]

I enjoy a holy text as much as the next zealot. I also enjoy questioning a holy text. I may have more beef (or tempeh, or satan) to add to this thread, but I'll begin with these three complaints about the 147 Custodians tab.

-Took me to number #103, to find an affordable, public option;
-Waited until #120, to find a municipal course;
-Text adjacent to #121-Glens Falls, might as well have read "I mailed this one in";

Join me in kvetching or counter me with salient conjecture. Salient is my word for December 28th.

St. Andrews Beach, at #76, is a public course, and a bargain compared to most here.  I don't know what your definition of "affordable" is, but weekday green fees in summer are A$85, which is about US$60 right now.


As to municipal courses, I don't know how many could fairly be described as Custodians of the Game.  They are all subject to the whims of local politics, farmed out to management companies, etc.  Not many are run by people who put golf first.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ron -
no beef from me about the list, as it seems to be in keeping with the natural (and/or inevitable) order of things:
The centre of power (and architectural discourse) has moved from an elegantly restored studio-barn in a bucolic setting just off Philadelphia's famed and prestigious Main Lain to a charming 1920s style summer home in the genteel heart of Southern Pines.
And with that shift in power/focal point has come a diminution of subtlety and expansiveness both: the Big World Theory of Architecture has become the My Eight Rules of Custodianship.   
In short: the outsider has become the insider, and so much the insider that said custodians list is not offered with the slightest sense of tentativeness -- so assured is this insider of the truth of his opinions and the superiority of his personal preferences.
But as I say: this is indeed the way of the world: the spirit of the law becomes the letter of the law, and the brilliantly eccentric uncle who happily resides on the margins gives way to the more stable-minded and conservatively dressed nephew who moves to the centre of the circle.
I think you can guess who is who    
P   

[JESII]

Very good my friend.






Ron, you don’t see Michelin stars in Ran’s list?

[Ronald Montesano]

Tom D: Yes to SAB as an affordable option. I alsofound Cape Breton Highlands (a municipal course) at #59, so less beef from me.

Is the description for #24 an inside joke?

Will St. Andrews Old continue to own a spot on this list, as the R&A hacks into her? Will the New replace her? Or, perhaps the Jubilee?


147 Custodians of Godot's Game. We all have our tenets, and sometimes they overlap in a Venn manner.


Why is George Wright on, but Bethpage Black is not? The Black does not play so narrowly, the entirety of the year. What about Bethpage Yellow, Red, Blue or Green? Bethpage as a whole might be considered a custodian of the game.

[JESII]

I can’t imagine a worse experience than the Black these days. As to the others at Bethpage, sure...just give me Sweeney as a tour guide.

[David_Elvins]

Ronald,


Disagree completely. 


I am a member of a course that is not on this list but has made significant improvements to the course by copying the design principles of several of the courses on Ran's list.


Shouldn't that be what a custodian is. A course that sets an example for others to follow?


If you were writing a Master plan for improving a course you could not go wrong by selecting courses on Ran's list by similar architects and or on similar terrain and examining what makes them so good to play and implementing these principles.

[Ira Fishman]

Ron -
no beef from me about the list, as it seems to be in keeping with the natural (and/or inevitable) order of things:
The centre of power (and architectural discourse) has moved from an elegantly restored studio-barn in a bucolic setting just off Philadelphia's famed and prestigious Main Lain to a charming 1920s style summer home in the genteel heart of Southern Pines.
And with that shift in power/focal point has come a diminution of subtlety and expansiveness both: the Big World Theory of Architecture has become the My Eight Rules of Custodianship.   
In short: the outsider has become the insider, and so much the insider that said custodians list is not offered with the slightest sense of tentativeness -- so assured is this insider of the truth of his opinions and the superiority of his personal preferences.
But as I say: this is indeed the way of the world: the spirit of the law becomes the letter of the law, and the brilliantly eccentric uncle who happily resides on the margins gives way to the more stable-minded and conservatively dressed nephew who moves to the centre of the circle.
I think you can guess who is who    
P   

Peter,


You make a wholly valid sociologically point that repeats often in history of the anti-establishment becoming the establishment, the anti-elite becoming the elite, and the outsider becoming the insider. But that does not always involve copping out or being co-opted. Often times it is better ideas prevailing and a heavy dose of generational change. I am hard pressed to think of better principles for golf clubs than those of the 147 Custodians.


But your underlying commentary is most important: principles and guidelines should not become Rules or Dictums that preclude debate and evolution.


Ira

[Mike_Clayton]

Barnbougle (#3) is public and at just over $80 US - and barely any more for all-day play. That's pretty affordable for a world top 40 course?

[Ronald Montesano]

Real MC: agree completely. I was unaware that Barnbougle was priced at such an affordable rate.


I'm recognizing, in the mirror, a fellow who wants his cake, and to eat it, too. I want all of these custodians to be accessible to me, both in terms of location and price point. It cannot be thus.


It would be a good exercise for us to establish our own list of why (and why not) certain courses within our circumference, are custodians of the game. A local prado that is nothing more than meadow golf, yet attracts an ethnically-diverse clientele, is a custodian of the game. Thus spake Zarathustra of Delaware Park, in Buffalo. Another course, also municipal, that traverses a polluted stream, back and forth, demanding the finest of shots (or the humility to lay the damned ball up!) is also a custodian. Such it is, with Sheridan Park in Buffalo.


It's beginning to feel a lot like Christmas!

[Garland Bayley]

If you have paid attention to Dai's posts, he has often posted about signing up to play Open tournaments at courses in the U.K. By doing so, you usually pay about 1/3 the green fee, which gives you prices I doubt you can object to. Of those courses that I have played of the 147, two were played this way. Another way to play some of them, would be to bite the bullet and play Buda. This has gotten me on at least a couple more. For example, I played St. Enodoc at Buda for a very reasonable price, and Royal North Devon, and Pennard on Open days for an extremely reasonable price all in the same trip.

Or, you could play Bandon Dunes courses in January for very reasonable prices. I think they might be $85 now.

[Jeff Schley]

Barnbougle (#3) is public and at just over $80 US (and barely any more for all-day play) that's pretty affordable for a world top 40 course?

Mike I agree that the price is very reasonable, however you have to factor in the cost of actually getting to Tasmania, as well as on site accommodation/food. While a very good standard exists there, it does drive the price quite a bit.

[Scott Warren]

Jeff,


You can get a quad-share cabin at Barnbougle Dunes for $60 a night per person and either clubhouse will sell you a burger or a pizza for $20.


Barnbougle is a cheap place to visit, go to whoa.


If you want to stay in greater comfort at Lost Farm and pay overs to eat in their restaurant, you can, but it’s a choice you make.


I regularly do a three-day visit in winter with some mates and always get change from $800 including return flights to/from Sydney. That’s flights, rental car, golf, bed, food, booze... the lot.

[Mike_Clayton]

Barnbougle (#3) is public and at just over $80 US (and barely any more for all-day play) that's pretty affordable for a world top 40 course?

Mike I agree that the price is very reasonable, however you have to factor in the cost of actually getting to Tasmania, as well as on site accommodation/food. While a very good standard exists there, it does drive the price quite a bit.

Jeff,


It depends where you live - but your'e right. Even flying from Melbourne puts $300 on the price.
But - I think someone worked out if you lived in LA and wanted a weeks golf it was cheaper to fly to Barnbougle than Bandon.
If not, I'm sure someone can do the sums.

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff,


You can get a quad-share cabin at Barnbougle Dunes for $60 a night per person and either clubhouse will sell you a burger or a pizza for $20.


Barnbougle is a cheap place to visit, go to whoa.


If you want to stay in greater comfort at Lost Farm and pay overs to eat in their restaurant, you can, but it’s a choice you make.


I regularly do a three-day visit in winter with some mates and always get change from $800 including return flights to/from Sydney. That’s flights, rental car, golf, bed, food, booze... the lot.

Scott,
I was there in February this year and quite like the location and accommodation.  I was pricing it from Melbourne/Sydney to fly from which is an extra expense as Mike states.  I'm not claiming it isn't an expensive place once there, it is that you have to fly there and can't drive.

[Niall C]

Ronald


Technically TOC is a muni and indeed NB is Council owned although run by a private club and both are in the top 10. As for the rest of the UK entries they are fairly accessible although with some you might baulk at the price however for a lot of them it is possible to play them relatively cheaply either in open comps or out of season.


Basically there are enough accessible and affordable options on the list. Are you suggesting that inaffordable and inaccessible clubs/courses shouldn't be on the list ?


Niall

[Ronald Montesano]

Garland...thanks for those insights. You are correct.

Niall...When we have to precede our point with "technically," we know before sentence completion that we are indeed skating on thin ice As to the second point, not in the slightest am I suggesting that these courses don't belong on the list. Just the massive presence of inaccessible courses that, by nature of the game, are compelled to exist.

Part (but not all) of what the list is saying to me is, YOU won't ever play here, but so that you are aware, it's real and it's spectacular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQNkeugaAMc

[Kalen Braley]

Still hard to take the list seriously while a course like Pasatiempo is not on it...as a quasi public to boot with plenty of tee times available for outside play


P.S.  I know Barnbougle techoncally counts as public, but sweet jesus, not many courses more remote than those two.

[Mike_Clayton]

Still hard to take the list seriously while a course like Pasatiempo is not on it...as a quasi public to boot with plenty of tee times available for outside play


P.S.  I know Barnbougle techoncally counts as public, but sweet jesus, not many courses more remote than those two.

Kalen,


'Remote' is only relative to where you live.

[Kalen Braley]

Still hard to take the list seriously while a course like Pasatiempo is not on it...as a quasi public to boot with plenty of tee times available for outside play

P.S.  I know Barnbougle technically counts as public, but sweet jesus, not many courses more remote than those two.

Kalen,

'Remote' is only relative to where you live.

Mike,

While this is true, I think the best measure is to consider the entire population of golfers.

There are approx 1 million golfers in Australia and 60 million World wide, the majority of which live in the US and Europe.  So I get Tasmania isn't too bad if you live in Melbourne, but given most golfers live on the other side of the globe, still seems like it belongs in the remote bucket. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Ira -
you're right. And the thing is, I very much agree with/share Ran's tastes.
All the more reason then, I think, for me to be a bit on guard lest I try to make those tastes the 'norm'.
Strangely, as I get older, I find myself getting less conservative, not more so.
Best to you and yours for a healthy and peaceful new year.
Peter   

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