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John Kavanaugh

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Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2019, 08:46:28 AM »
The inclusiveness of an AJGA tournament is intoxicating.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2019, 09:48:52 AM »



So it is more "inclusive" to travel all over the world and play golf at all these great and very expensive venues and then publish the conquests on the internet?


Which says nothing of all the courses people that champion being "inclusive" attempt to play that are perceived  or that they criticize for  being "exclusive"? 


FWIW...I made a choice years ago to join a club, I love to play and for me it was a quality of life issue.  I was going to play anyway and it was important to have a strong golfing atmosphere and culture.  The whole CCFAD angle (and to a certain extent the expensive golf resorts) seems to be more geared toward atmosphere (grass fed beef, wine list, cigars, single malt scotch) than product (good course with adequate pace of play). 


I think many more could have thrived if it was solely golf..a good course but more importantly a "golf club experience" not in the clubhouse but rather on the golf course. 


And what does this say about organizations like the McMahon group who are supposed to "help" clubs set goals and an agenda...all they come back with is ideas designed to "attract" millenials while at the same type making the atmosphere at these clubs "more exclusive".








Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2019, 11:19:04 AM »
Kalen,

90% of the members of private clubs where I have played are self made. What is your point?


The myth of the self made man....you're slipping Barney, what a predictable retort.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:28:32 AM by Kalen Braley »

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2019, 11:32:43 AM »
I can see the thread has devolved further into “what’s wrong with those young folk?!”


Sometimes I wonder if the person telling me that my generation spends too much time on the phone and isn’t willing to work for anything is a McGovern voter that got tired of hearing how their parents defeated fascism.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:38:16 AM by Ben Sims »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2019, 11:41:02 AM »
I can see the thread has devolved further into “what’s wrong with those young folk?!”


Sometimes I wonder if the person telling me that my generation spends too much time on the phone and isn’t willing to work for anything is a McGovern voter that got tired of hearing how their parents defeated fascism.


Worse.


Muskie.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2019, 11:44:13 AM »
I tire of hearing about private clubs and country clubs as though they are golf.  With a few exceptions private clubs rely on one thing to be what they are and that is dollars.  People are willing to pay for what they receive from such a club.  However, most all private clubs are inefficient and cannot stand on their own without initiation fees etc.  It's sort of like the Goldendoodles and Labradoodles and all the fancy metrosexual dogs of the day.  Put them on the street and they die while the mutt will survive.  Initiation fees don't work in mobile societies.  And private club employees have one goal...get to the next president.  And so for the most part we are sitting on a pile of inefficient, dysfunctional places that depend on a constant influx of members from each generation.  And as someone said, the McMahon Group feeds off of these club boards thinking they have to spend to get the next guys coming their way. 

It doesn't work anymore except for a few.  The European model will come this way. 
Yes, I am a member of a private club with a 9 man board of people who spend two hours per month choosing dinner and how to fix the new bar for the upcoming reworks.  It's not a model to follow.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2019, 11:55:27 AM »
Mike,


As the kids say, shoot your shot. Turns out yours was a good one. Great post. I’m watching our local club die a slow death. We resigned when we went to grab a julep at the Derby party and they put club soda in it. I digress.


In all seriousness, this whole thing isn’t generational. It isn’t about millennials vs Gen X vs Boomers. It’s about changing dynamics. I don’t see many motoring clubs out there anymore, or supper clubs for that matter. Skiing is changing rapidly as well. The dynamics that made skiing more accessible or less accessible thirty years ago are totally different now too.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2019, 12:10:41 PM »
Kalen,

90% of the members of private clubs where I have played are self made. What is your point?


The myth of the self made man....you're slipping Barney, what a predictable retort.


I had no idea that this was now a part of woke culture. Thank you.


https://raywilliams.ca/the-myth-of-the-self-made-man-and-woman-in-america/

Steve Kohler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2019, 12:50:25 PM »
I am a 31 year-old millennial that joined a private club at age 23.  I had never seriously played golf before joining but am now a full-fledged addict that plays 60+ rounds a year.  I initially joined the club because 1) intermediate dues were insanely cheap post-recession and 2) working in a professional services firm I was jealous of the partners that played “client” golf all summer long and wanted in on the action.

After several years of membership and a job change, my reasons for remaining a member have changed drastically: I now value the friendliness and convenience of the club, enjoy the challenge of the game, and enjoy playing with my dad (who is also a member).  Even 8 years after joining, I am still one of the youngest members in the club.  I drool over the wide variety of courses available across the US and world, and wish I had the time and budget to travel more extensively for golf.  I could trade in my club membership and use the freed up dollars for additional travel, but I value the ability to escape at my local club, if only for a few hours at a time.


Only a handful of my friends (outside the club) play even casual golf, and an even smaller number have ever expressed any desire to join a club.  Their demographics match up with the traditional image of a club member: white collar careers, married or in committed relationships, enjoy active and social pursuits.  They choose to spend their time and money elsewhere though: travel, concerts, sporting events, tech toys.  Even the athletically inclined are more likely to spend their discretionary income on gym memberships, cycling, running, hiking, Crossfit, etc.


All of this is a long-winded way of saying: golf is a difficult, niche sport that takes itself too seriously.  Appreciating tradition is fine, but the obsessive deference to antiquated ideals, stuffy etiquette, and overly complicated rules is an immediate turn off to many new golfers and potential club members.  Even if you get the prospective member over the new golfer hurdle, you then have to deal with stuffy clubhouses, outdated dining (dover sole, anyone?), and existing club politics – especially the NIMBY-ism of the “old guard” members resistant to change.


The clubs that will thrive into the future will have to find the right balance of a relaxed-but-upscale culture and amenities that appeal to the whole family without drowning the club in debt.  Easy, low-cost places to start: quality golf programming for women (especially employed women) and children, less formal dining, unrelenting emphasis on member service, low tolerance for a**hole members.  My millennial cohort appreciates an upscale lifestyle and is willing to pay up for it, but most clubs have been too slow to evolve with a changing entertainment and leisure landscape.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2019, 02:15:18 PM »
Even 8 years after joining, I am still one of the youngest members in the club. 
Steve,
Hmmm....who will support the aging membership? ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Greg Stebbins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2019, 02:24:13 PM »
An introspective question for club leaders dealing with this issue - are you selling a membership to younger professionals as an opportunity to enjoy the game in a social environment or are you selling a membership that provides a specific golf experience catered to the tastes of only the most influential members?


I think if clubs are being honest with themselves, it's typically the latter.  Of course clubs have every right to define their norms but they shouldn't wonder why their membership outreach or retention is unsuccessful when hard lines are drawn.  A lot of clubs like to point to a full golf and social calendar, but how many of these events restrict access to the course and/or restaurant for members that can't commit to 6 or 7 hours at the club on Saturday and Sunday?  And how many of these events include costs above and beyond member dues?  Do hard restrictions exist for when you can or can't ride a cart, take a caddie, use a push cart?  If so - what purpose is that serving?


For all but the most wealthy, membership is going to be a value proposition.  Clubs do not need to abandon decorum and values to create a larger tent but it doesn't take much to turn someone off who is contemplating such a significant financial commitment.











Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2019, 02:49:21 PM »
Millennials are too busy ruining their children’s lives to enjoy their own.


John, don’t you get tired of spewing stupid shit?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #137 on: December 30, 2019, 02:54:01 PM »
Giving up your adult lives to hover over your children does no one any good.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #138 on: December 30, 2019, 06:03:30 PM »
Giving up your adult lives to hover over your children does no one any good.


Call me crazy, but I think it beats burying one's collective head in the sand when it comes to climate change and continuing policies that put future generations at risk environmentally and financially.


And if we're going off of anecdotal evidence, all my friends I know are excellent parents. Seems like a great investment in our collective future.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #139 on: December 30, 2019, 06:10:53 PM »
Doing your kids homework is the poor man’s college admissions scandal. Have a glass of wine and allow your children a chance to fail. You want to be an excellent parent, be there that day.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #140 on: December 30, 2019, 06:19:37 PM »
So if I'm following correctly, Millenials won't join country clubs because they're investing too much time into their childrens' lives, which is a poor parenting decision. These same Millenials who were raised by the Boomer generation, who parented in indisputably the best way possible.


Got it, thanks for explaining.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #141 on: December 30, 2019, 06:52:12 PM »
Doing your kids homework is the poor man’s college admissions scandal. Have a glass of wine and allow your children a chance to fail. You want to be an excellent parent, be there that day.


Interesting.  Allow you kids to fail. That was my wife's theory (which ruled our house).  My "kids" are now 47 and 43, and I must say it's worked out really well.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #142 on: December 30, 2019, 07:07:19 PM »
So this is what a marginally on topic thread has come to, an argument over parenting styles featuring over generalized stereotypical descriptions on both sides.  The topic might have generated a productive discussion comparing various clubs efforts to attract and keep members.  Not all clubs are failing and all clubs are required to turn over their memberships periodically.  How to attract and accommodate new members while satisfying the expectations and needs of long term members is a challenge that varies from club to club but one that each institution must respond to from time to time.  When my boomer generation was coming out of the "revolution" period of the 60's and early 70's, many predicted that we would reject the materialistic trappings of our parents generation.  It didn't quite work out that way, at least for a significant portion of us.  The millennials face different challenges just as each generation has before and they will do their best to figure them out, no doubt with a variety of solutions.  But this discussion has devolved to a few from opposite camps arguing past each other.  If we can't return to GCA, let's move on.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #143 on: December 30, 2019, 07:46:36 PM »
You have six pages of pretty thoughtful discussion and much of it from the subject “millinneals. Why stifle discussion because of a few posts that stray a little? Actually when I saw the title and original post I thought it would get testier than it has. People weighing in with a variety of viewpoints is not a bad thing and has a tendency to better develop the thread.


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #144 on: December 30, 2019, 07:52:48 PM »
I have zero problems with millennials and golf.  I'm just saying we are not going to fit them into something that was created for past generations.  At The Fields we have a lot of millennials that come down and play all day and I understand what they are looking for more and more each day.  Our biggest future issue with private clubs will be the size of clubhouses not the golf. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #145 on: December 30, 2019, 08:04:33 PM »
Our biggest future issue with private clubs will be the size of clubhouses not the golf.


That's a provocative statement, but when you put it out like that it makes a lot of sense:


  Millennials have lots of things they want to do
  They are attracted to best-in-breed versions of those things
  They don't need a social network based on "place" when they have many over-lapping social networks already
  The country part of the country club is good for the golf
  The club part of the country club....it's not the best food/beer/cocktails and it's not overly inviting to their non-CC friends, so limited value
  The club part of the club turns out to be a giant expense you have to pay for to get the golf....


There was an interesting comment (too lazy to hunt it down) that the European model will be coming to the US soon enough. And if memory serves, the European model places a much smaller focus on the club.  Makes sense.
 
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #146 on: December 30, 2019, 08:19:19 PM »
I think Mike Young probably has the most realistic viewpoints on this issue, which boils down to non top-tier clubs will either either adapt or die off.  Basic lesson that anthropology has taught us again and again and again...


P.S.  I have 4 kids all in thier 20s. 2 have graduated college, one will graduate in the Spring, and the other just finished her Associates degree.  My oldest did it while having 3 kids, and my 3rd did it with major depression issues that caused her to be admitted for treatment on several occasions. I can count the # of times on one hand among all 4 combined I helped in any meaningful way on homework or projects.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #147 on: December 30, 2019, 08:22:36 PM »
I have zero problems with millennials and golf.  I'm just saying we are not going to fit them into something that was created for past generations.  At The Fields we have a lot of millennials that come down and play all day and I understand what they are looking for more and more each day.  Our biggest future issue with private clubs will be the size of clubhouses not the golf.


Mike-My comment wasn't directed at you as you have contributed some fine posts to the thread. There have been some great exchanges that cross generational lines.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #148 on: December 30, 2019, 08:35:51 PM »
I have zero problems with millennials and golf.  I'm just saying we are not going to fit them into something that was created for past generations.  At The Fields we have a lot of millennials that come down and play all day and I understand what they are looking for more and more each day.  Our biggest future issue with private clubs will be the size of clubhouses not the golf.


Mike-My comment wasn't directed at you as you have contributed some fine posts to the thread. There have been some great exchanges that cross generational lines.
I know that.  but thx anyway...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"
« Reply #149 on: December 30, 2019, 08:38:38 PM »
At the risk of breaking my rule not to engage with trolls, for the record,

Millennials weren't the ones perpetrating helicopter parenting.  Millennials were the recipients of helicopter parenting. Boomers, I think you have another winner on your generational bingo card, here!

I believe that the new fad parenting stratagem that will ruin my generation's (X for...whatever?) children is Free-Range Parenting.

Free Range Parenting (The Atlantic)






The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright