[Mike_Young]

Millennials will join CrossFit communities for a similar cost of a country club. Likewise other avocations. They play golf at public courses all the time.
It isn't the cost. It's the culture.
Prerequisite: "Okay, boomer."I generally don't like boards of know-nothings telling me how to spend my money in their proxy ego wars...

....oh.

....oh, dear.

Kyle has the gist of it down.


It's not that millennials will not join clubs.  It's that the clubs do not join them.  The free enterprise system works and the 501c7 private club structure tries to buck it all the time.  It is not a sustainable model for golf.  The classic "senior dropping the dues structure by half at age 75" and then being subsidized by the younger guys who are saddled with various other debts including heath insurance( which has not been mentioned) will go away. The younger golfers will rebel and what we see now is one form.  The better public courses have shown the waste so often involved with board run clubs and they should.  Not many industries can try to offer a product that cost more to produce than they can sell it for and remain in business.  The private club clubhouse in many cases had made it where a club cannot reduce back down to the basics it needs to attract the younger person.  The private club created by my generation and the one after have created local private clubs that cannot be sustained.  The winners will be the clubs that cry uncle first. Go away from 501c7 and initiation fees and fix it.

[Mike_Young]

There has always been "better stuff to do" except for a brief period where a few misinformed souls bought the marketing/Tiger hype and thought golf was cool.
Now they've come to their senses and golf can stop trying to "grow" and be so many different things and can now revert back to those of us truly afflicted with the bug/passion.
Like any over saturated markets  many businesses will suffer and golf will still be golf.

You r right...I call it getting away from the edges...so many of the clubs we are discussing spend so much money getting things prepped and hyped that rarely affect the quality of the golf experience.....there are a lot of good greens out there to putt on...and their bunkers may not be raked..and the cart paths may be cracked but they will be here when many of the others are gone...

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

Ben,
Do you happen to recall me telling you tht you would reach the point you are at now back when we were trying to set it up for you to work at ANGC one tourney.  you had the Canvas bag, the PGC membership and were really into it...I remember telling you there would be a time you would go away from the golf and later come back...for me it was whitewater kayaking until you age back into golf and kids are older...all is good...

 Mike,


I don’t remember the specific language, but I do remember that you are one of the two people to have said that to me at my height of traveling and studying golf courses. I played three rounds of golf this year, all at Ballyneal with a dear friend. We surmised and halfway joked that it may be my last “golf trip” for years. I can’t honestly explain why it is the way it is. I can now afford things in golf that I couldn’t five years ago. The fact that I don’t if probably more a reflection on me and golf in general more than people in my generation not joining clubs. Hope you’re well back home. 

[Mike_Young]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

Ben,
Do you happen to recall me telling you tht you would reach the point you are at now back when we were trying to set it up for you to work at ANGC one tourney.  you had the Canvas bag, the PGC membership and were really into it...I remember telling you there would be a time you would go away from the golf and later come back...for me it was whitewater kayaking until you age back into golf and kids are older...all is good...

 Mike,


I don’t remember the specific language, but I do remember that you are one of the two people to have said that to me at my height of traveling and studying golf courses. I played three rounds of golf this year, all at Ballyneal with a dear friend. We surmised and halfway joked that it may be my last “golf trip” for years. I can’t honestly explain why it is the way it is. I can now afford things in golf that I couldn’t five years ago. The fact that I don’t if probably more a reflection on me and golf in general more than people in my generation not joining clubs. Hope you’re well back home. 

All good here...where are you living now?

[John Kavanaugh]

If you are ever lucky enough to have a millennial join your club you will soon wish they hadn’t.

Worth repeating. The game would be better if it died in the arms of those who love it.

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

Ben,
Do you happen to recall me telling you tht you would reach the point you are at now back when we were trying to set it up for you to work at ANGC one tourney.  you had the Canvas bag, the PGC membership and were really into it...I remember telling you there would be a time you would go away from the golf and later come back...for me it was whitewater kayaking until you age back into golf and kids are older...all is good...

 Mike,


I don’t remember the specific language, but I do remember that you are one of the two people to have said that to me at my height of traveling and studying golf courses. I played three rounds of golf this year, all at Ballyneal with a dear friend. We surmised and halfway joked that it may be my last “golf trip” for years. I can’t honestly explain why it is the way it is. I can now afford things in golf that I couldn’t five years ago. The fact that I don’t if probably more a reflection on me and golf in general more than people in my generation not joining clubs. Hope you’re well back home. 

All good here...where are you living now?

We settled in between Denver and Colorado Springs. I’m totally separated from the Air Force and fly for a major airline. Dad had settled permanently now in Athens, I’ll drop a line next time I visit.

[Mike_Young]

If you are ever lucky enough to have a millennial join your club you will soon wish they hadn’t.

Worth repeating. The game would be better if it died in the arms of those who love it.

I can live with that....also, I am confident the average committee member and club member does not love it the way the past generation did.  Many don't even try to learn the game or improve but they want the club to be bigger and better form their view..

[Mike_Young]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

Ben,
Do you happen to recall me telling you tht you would reach the point you are at now back when we were trying to set it up for you to work at ANGC one tourney.  you had the Canvas bag, the PGC membership and were really into it...I remember telling you there would be a time you would go away from the golf and later come back...for me it was whitewater kayaking until you age back into golf and kids are older...all is good...

 Mike,


I don’t remember the specific language, but I do remember that you are one of the two people to have said that to me at my height of traveling and studying golf courses. I played three rounds of golf this year, all at Ballyneal with a dear friend. We surmised and halfway joked that it may be my last “golf trip” for years. I can’t honestly explain why it is the way it is. I can now afford things in golf that I couldn’t five years ago. The fact that I don’t if probably more a reflection on me and golf in general more than people in my generation not joining clubs. Hope you’re well back home. 

All good here...where are you living now?

We settled in between Denver and Colorado Springs. I’m totally separated from the Air Force and fly for a major airline. Dad had settled permanently now in Athens, I’ll drop a line next time I visit.

Drop me a line next visit...also my daughter just moved to Westminster Co.  you still got my info?

[John Kavanaugh]

I’ve never been angry enough to have been asked to serve on a committee. I have been angry enough for my wife to ask me to go play golf.

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

Ben,
Do you happen to recall me telling you tht you would reach the point you are at now back when we were trying to set it up for you to work at ANGC one tourney.  you had the Canvas bag, the PGC membership and were really into it...I remember telling you there would be a time you would go away from the golf and later come back...for me it was whitewater kayaking until you age back into golf and kids are older...all is good...

 Mike,


I don’t remember the specific language, but I do remember that you are one of the two people to have said that to me at my height of traveling and studying golf courses. I played three rounds of golf this year, all at Ballyneal with a dear friend. We surmised and halfway joked that it may be my last “golf trip” for years. I can’t honestly explain why it is the way it is. I can now afford things in golf that I couldn’t five years ago. The fact that I don’t if probably more a reflection on me and golf in general more than people in my generation not joining clubs. Hope you’re well back home. 

All good here...where are you living now?

We settled in between Denver and Colorado Springs. I’m totally separated from the Air Force and fly for a major airline. Dad had settled permanently now in Athens, I’ll drop a line next time I visit.

Drop me a line next visit...also my daughter just moved to Westminster Co.  you still got my info?

If it hasn’t changed in a couple years, I still have it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Love wins!!!

[Craig Sweet]

At the last club I worked at, many of my friends were members, and they told me they rarely got involved with committees or the "affairs" of the club because there was too much politics involved.


I surmise that most millenials don't join for the same reason. They just want to golf, and they don't need the responsibility of membership to wack a little white ball around

[Noah Weinberger]

As a millennial living in Chicago, my main reasons for not joining a local club were 1) Didn't want to pay significant initiation fee when not certain how long I'd remain living in the area 2) significant round trip commute from Lincoln Park 3) Club waiving an initiation fee but not allowing me to walk without a caddie before 3pm

[Ronald Montesano]

Found another Kavanaugh quote I can use. This one I like. From earlier in this thread:

"So, why not take an Uber to the club, grab a few drinks and try to find an adult who can explain how Jon Favreau became the guy who pitched the Mandalorian to Disney."

I'll get to the Kavanaugh quote in a moment. From my perch of 54 years, many who observe the young'uns with their phones, and apparent disinterest in present company, don't understand how they communicate and share. It's not that they are distanced from each other; they respond to one another as Ben Sims mentioned above, based on a framework that was handed to them. Another framework was handed to the Greatest Generation of Brokaw, and it responded. Still another was handed to the Beatles generation, and it responded.

So, too, with golf. Foot golf might be fun for soccer players, but regular golf, not in the slightest. Ball and stick athletes (lacrosse, baseball, field and ice hockey, cricket) are much more likely to take up golf; they have the mindset and kinesthesia for hitting something with something else. Then you get the NBA golf junkies...how do we explain that?

I found the points about no longer writing off membership; burden of a massive clubhouse and the expectations for staffing, upkeep and offerings that come with it; and the idea of golf not having to be bigger than four letters, to be salient points and worth repeating.

Back to the quote. The Uber is being picked out of the millenial basket, and used for purpose. No one says you have to accept all the millenial offering, so why should millenials be compelled to accept all the X, Y, Z, Boomer offerings? Next, the drinks might be any pursuit offered at the club, but they need to be valuable enough to extract one from a place/space of comfort, even with a Lyft available. Third, find an adult...why an adult? Some folks are simply comfortable speaking with their generation, or with someone to whom they would grant membership in their generation. In contrast, some older peoples seek the company of younger peoples, because they miss/envy/value the spirit and enthusiasm of youth. This is communicated by the topic of conversation: a program currently streaming on Disney+, a spin-off from a movie series that captivated kids from the late 1970s/early 1980s, the late 1990s/early 2000s, and the 2010s.

[John Kavanaugh]

You have to find an adult because they will remember Favreau in Swingers. I tried to have this exact discussion with a Marvel comic fan boy and it went nowhere. There is value in experience and knowledge over the cuteness of naïveté ignorance. Always go for the adult.

[John Kavanaugh]

This Thanksgiving I went to Bent Pine in Vero Beach with my Dad and his friends for brunch. One of the older gentlemen at the table told the story of the time he bumped into Jackie O leaving a tack shop out east. She must have forgotten some accessory for her afternoon ride.


Fast forward a few years to a snack bar at the Buck Club and imagine the same story but with Cardi B as the heroine. Meeting her coming out of a vape shop in LA. She must have forgotten some accessory for her afternoon ride.


The initials are different but the stories are the same. That’s why you join a club.

[Ben Sims]

You have to find an adult because they will remember Favreau in Swingers. I tried to have this exact discussion with a Marvel comic fan boy and it went nowhere. There is value in experience and knowledge over the cuteness of naïveté ignorance. Always go for the adult.

Explaining to nostalgic boomers and X’ers why Chef is a superior film to Swingers proves your point.


That’s said, I doubt one day I’ll be on a ski lift with a naive Gen Z ignoramus and talk about how cool it was to have Bill Coore watch me pull a hook a four iron at Friars Head.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Again, I vaguely recall some discussion and fear in the industry in the 1970's about how youth weren't enjoying golf the way their Dad's did.  The only constant is change.  Really, same discussion, different decade here, just for historical perspective.



Agree with the hundred points made here, and all probably contribute 1% to the decline of golf.  Again, reminded of the Simpson episode where they conclude it was just "a whole lot of things that happened."  IMHO, if there is one constant, it is that everyone can be counted on to do what's best for themselves.  Most of the time, that involves running the numbers, comparing the values before spending hard earned cash.  The "economy" is thought of as one big thing, but it's literally billions of individual spending decisions on any given day by businesses and people.


Or, simply said, "follow the money."

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

The reason a "country club" existed in the first place was for well heeled city dwellers to escape the crowds of middle class riff raff and pollution and escape for the weekend to play golf, ride horses and swim.


My parents (older boomers) saw joining a club and learning to play golf as a sign of making it, as many rose from lower middle class during post WWII expansion. Most of my Dad's fellow members had middle management white collar jobs where the company paid their dues. When the tax law changed they were ingrained enough in club life to keep the membership. The men also didn't have a ton a parental responsibilities, but the wives were OK with it and seemed to enjoy life at the club when they could - playing bridge, having lunch, etc. They lived in middle to upper middle class areas that were safe, clean, neighbors took pride in their property, so you didn't have to over pay for a home to be around similar minded people. Several of my parents friends had mortgages less than their dues.


My generation X male is expected to give 50/50 towards child rearing, real estate is high, college funding is expensive, every other home has a pool (in an area where its a 4 month swim season!). A mid tier club in St. Louis runs $750-$950/month in dues before you rent a cart (gasp!) and buy a $7 hot dog. Its more expensive to eat at my city club than TGI Fridays - which makes no sense to me. The people my generation who are members at clubs almost all have household incomes of 250k+


I think there is a lot about golf millenials would gravitate too - just look at the social media fawning over places like Sweetens Cove and The Cradle. But they don't seem to care about fancy clubhouses, breakfast with Santa, social climbing (at least not via club life). I think a club that emphasized the outdoor component, allowed dogs, and had a good whiskey and craft beer bar would survive. The model has to change

[John Emerson]

Sorry John Emerson..but do you have any special insight into the politics of those that have joined the great new clubs of the East End of Long Island? You really think they are somehow "Republican"?


Population growth has nothing/little to do with the growth of a luxury item that serves the top .01% financially.   Rather than poltical antipathy that millennials have for Old white guys perhaps it is more rooted in the economic policies we have had for the last twenty years..little income growth, increased income inequality, high debt levels (since everyone should go to a high powered school) and less disposable income with high local tax rates?


If Ian and others are correct, that there is anger and malice and visceral hate of old Republican white guys and what they stand for and what institutions they have "created".. wouldn't that show up in the guest round numbers at these pathetic clubs?

Being a superintendent in a deep blue state, and being close with many of the members....they are overwhelmingly republican.  By a large margin might I add.  I also have many other friends who are superintendents at other courses and the people at most clubs are overwhelmingly republican.  So location has zero to with political affiliations 

[John Emerson]

I want to add that I’m somewhere in between generation X and millennials.  I’ve played golf since I was 12.  And now I’m a superintendent.  I’m lucky being in the industry that I usually never pay for golf regardless of where I go. If I do pay it’s at reduced rate. But I know one thing is for sure.  The typical “private club life” offers me nothing that I would pay for even if I was not a superintendent, or if I could afford it.  I prefer sitting around bullshitting with craft beers and taco trucks to greens committee politics and Sunday brunches.  Maybe there is a private club out there somewhere that is “woke” to the people of my ilk, but I have yet to encounter them.  The business model is one that’s set for failure at some point in the future.

[JESII]

Lulu

[JHoulihan]

Born in 1981 this is one of the posts that relate directly to me.
Personally there are many thoughts of why or why not me and my close friends may or may not have chosen to "belong"
1. How long do you plan to stay in your current city/job/situation
I personally have moved about every 5 years for both school and job. I personally believe that those who stay in a job long term 10-20 years are by far the minority (Less than 5%) versus those who move around to find different or better options (even if 30-60 minutes away from previous location)
2.Travel time to good/great public golf options
Living in Phoenix AZ gives me advantage to almost all cities in America (maybe outside of Myrtle Beach)
3. Cost (Both initiation and monthly)
Unsure what others pay to play but personally paid about $3500 to play 44 rounds this year. This included 1 week vacation so year at home would be about $3000 for 39 rounds.
4. Distance (From both home and work)
This could be #1 detail for many knowing what is the most precious resource we all try to conserve...OUR TIME
5. Time availability (Golf and social)
Some work 50 hours per week and others 0, so there is such a wide range of ability based on your job and situation
6. Quality of golf course (Extra bonus if facility has more than one course)
Some may be happy with less than perfect but everyone has there own idea of value paid versus feeling like they were ripped off when signing on the dotted line
7. Reciprocal privileges (Ability to play more than one course WITHOUT extra cost)
This is really getting picky but if one option has multiple places to play that may be the deciding factor especially if have a 9 hole course to get around quickly
8. Members of both young singles vs established families
Having members of similar age and situation can make your first year as a member a success or failure
9. Networking/new friends
Personally not a reason for me to join but others who may be in sales and enlarge the contact list may make this much higher priority
10. Non-golf activities (Gym/Restaurant)
Will I be a country club member in the next 5 years, probably not.
Will I be a member EVER, hopefully yes after finding the perfect situation no matter the location.


Justin

[Peter Ferlicca]

My wife and I both live in Peoria, AZ (age 32 and 37).  I work as a golf course superintendent and she is employed at GoDaddy as a head accountant.  We both make decent money, but joining a private country club isn't even a possibility right now. 
-First, golf courses are ridiculously expensive in the Phoenix area.  Public golf in season is at least $100 just for a run of the mill course and private clubs all start at around 20-200K initiation with dues that run from 8-25K a year.  There is no way any of those would fit into our budget, just not possible. 
-Second, I work in the business, so I never really have to pay for golf as John Emerson was stating.  If at some point when I get into my 40s I would like to potentially be able to play somewhere else whenever I want, it would be me getting a passholder option at a semi-private course for around 4k a year.  This seems much more feasible to me than dropping down a huge initiation fee and yearly dues at a fully private club.  Also, there are so many troon properties out here, that even getting the Troon card and having 25 different courses to choose from at a discounted rate is way more appealing. 
-Third, as mentioned before my wife has a lot of college debt still to pay off from getting her masters.  This will take us another 12+ years most likely.  If that huge monthly bill wasn't around, then yes, maybe we would have more expendable income to spend on stuff like a private club.  Any friends of my wife that did more education after there bachelors, that college loan will be with them for a long time. 
-Fourth, if at some time we did have a good amount of extra money that could go into something I can guarantee it would go into real estate.  Phoenix is the fastest growing city right now and communities are popping up all over the place, yes we could see another crash coming soon, but even then just buying land and holding onto it for 5 years you can double your money.  Our generation is more inclined to look at ways to get us more money instead of spending what we make (at least that is how I feel).  So if a sound investment doesn't get you any enjoyment, but could pad your 401K that is a win win in our eyes.  The millennials wont have the social security to rely on when we retire.  So our retirement number has to be a much bigger number.  It is a scary thought and something that makes us feel like we are going to have to work longer than expected just to be able to enjoy a couple good years of retirement. 




I fear for all the private clubs and Sun City areas in Phoenix.  Baby Boomers homes and memberships will all start becoming open here in the next 10-20 years.  There has been many articles about who is going to fill all the homes in Sun City once that happens.  People will always retire here, we get everyone from the northwest, Midwest, rockies, etc.  It is just is there enough to even everything out.  Places like Palm Desert and Scottsdale, 90% of those private clubs are filled with 60-80 year old baby boomers that are loaded.  I cant imagine all those places being able to stay financially strong in 20 years.  I might be wrong, but unless multi millionaires buy up the club on their own like what has happened at Scottsdale National and Silverleaf, it just doesn't look like it will pan out.  Will all these private clubs start having outside play like the Scotland, Australia private club model, who knows. 

[Ian Andrew]

Around Southwestern Ontario many private clubs have dropped their Initiation fees to keep the yearly membership full. While not a great situation for the club, this does work well for many younger players. Many join till they buy a house of have kids, but some even manage to stay through both. This may not great for the business of the club ... but it is good for retaining younger players.

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