[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps this has been mentioned and I missed it, and in any case there is no way to quantify it, but I wonder if education debt plays a part in this?  The millenials are the ones now actively in the process of having to pay off six figure student loan debt.


I finished college and graduate school, both paid for almost completely by me rather than my parents, with debt of less than $10k, and half of it was cancelled because I went into teaching.


By contrast, I have a 35 year old nephew; he and his wife (who also went to law school) have nearly $200k in education debt.  This level of debt to me would be soul-crushing, but they don't seem alarmed, probably because many of their friends have similar debt levels.  But in any case, their ability to pour disposable income into leisure pursuits is limited, and will be for years to come.

[Tim Gavrich]

...being a teacher and having a number of these young'uns in my social media circles, if I were to start a fresh CC in Buffalo (feel free to concur, based on where you live) this is what I would include:


A golf course;
craft beer;
craft spirits;
a chill grill room, away from the clubhouse, with nice views;
a rumpus room, for ax throwing and other madness;

Ron, thank you for this, because it brings up another point I have made in the past that I believe is worth repeating.


Even for us cash-strapped Millennials, our living spaces are much cozier and more customized to our lifestyles now than they were for past generations. We can go get IKEA furniture for a fraction of what better-made similar stuff(tangent: watch the IKEA episode on the Netflix series "Broken") used to cost on a relative basis. We have all this technology stuff that is capable of filling our passive hours (for better and worse).


Any sort of social location (country clubs, for sure, but even restaurants and bars) has always had to compete with people's living rooms. The country club had better be awfully cozy, convivial and deliver substantial value (both $ and otherwise) for me to spend an hour there instead of an hour on my inexpensive but good-enough couch watching Netflix on a relatively high-quality, inexpensive flat-screen TV. The hangout experience has not improved at country clubs nearly as fast as it has improved in the home. This is another problem.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps this has been mentioned and I missed it, and in any case there is no way to quantify it, but I wonder if education debt plays a part in this?  The millenials are the ones now actively in the process of having to pay off six figure student loan debt.


I finished college and graduate school, both paid for almost completely by me rather than my parents, with debt of less than $10k, and half of it was cancelled because I went into teaching.


By contrast, I have a 35 year old nephew; he and his wife (who also went to law school) have nearly $200k in education debt.  This level of debt to me would be soul-crushing, but they don't seem alarmed, probably because many of their friends have similar debt levels.  But in any case, their ability to pour disposable income into leisure pursuits is limited, and will be for years to come.

AG, that's got a LOT to do with it.


We live in Chicago with PLENTY of clubs to join and courses to play.
In 1986, a two bedroom starter apartment in the city was $750/mo. Today, that's more like $3,000. Incomes have NOT risen commensurately. College was $5K back then. Today it's $25-$60K.


Junior memberships have been unbelievably popular and a lot of these millennials who have piped in have missed this.


TOP TIER courses, and I mean really top tier, offer great deals. If you actually play twice a week, it's a bargain.


Now, what remains to be seen is if these new junior members convert to full membership or if they cut and run.


As Shel said, time will tell...;-)

[A.G._Crockett]

I am not sure where Ian Mackenzie lives but I am not sure I agree with the White Republican thing when many of the "great" clubs are in Blue states and overwhelmingly blue metro areas. 


Using population growth as some sort of measure of "health of club industry" is also way off for a variety of reasons especially in light of the recent post by Jeff about the new clubs on the East End of Long Island...Do we really think that is a function of population growth or growth of the game?

Just in the small area of eastern Long Island twin forksThe BridgeEast HamptonAtlanticSebonackFriars HeadLong Island NationalThe Vineyards
Laurel Links 

Corey,

That a private club is in a blue area might tilt the membership demographic a bit, but only a bit.  I don't think it's much of gamble to bet that the memberships of private clubs in the US are likely to be disproportionately Republican, regardless of the demographic of the surrounding area.


 It might be instructive to consider the number of clubs that are still men-only; the areas around these clubs have women, right?  And I think you could apply the same reasoning to a lack of racial and religious diversity within private clubs, too. 


As to newer private clubs on Long Island, lets agree that New York is perhaps the greatest outlier in the world in terms of the availability of people with money.  Heck, the Knicks average nearly 20,000 a game, and they can't beat anybody!  The Mets draw 30,000 a game and are in the upper half of MLB attendance.  I could go on, but that would be piling on NYC sports fans.  The point is that I don't think that what works in NYC necessarily works anywhere else.  It might, but not necessarily.

[John Kavanaugh]

Uber has made club life better now than at any point in my 50 years of playing. Lack of personal privacy in public spaces have made club life more important than at any time in the past 10 years. Streaming entertainment has made staying at home during regimented time periods less important than ever. So, why not take an Uber to the club, grab a few drinks and try to find an adult who can explain how Jon Favreau became the guy who pitched the Mandalorian to Disney.

[John Emerson]

I am not sure where Ian Mackenzie lives but I am not sure I agree with the White Republican thing when many of the "great" clubs are in Blue states and overwhelmingly blue metro areas. 


Using population growth as some sort of measure of "health of club industry" is also way off for a variety of reasons especially in light of the recent post by Jeff about the new clubs on the East End of Long Island...Do we really think that is a function of population growth or growth of the game?

Just in the small area of eastern Long Island twin forksThe BridgeEast HamptonAtlanticSebonackFriars HeadLong Island NationalThe Vineyards
Laurel Links 

Location in a blue states has zero to do with what kind a people patronize the club. 

[Joe Zucker]

I don't think debt is the main driver.  The median debt for college graduates is only $30K.  There really aren't that many people with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. And those that do, often have very good jobs that make paying it off possible (though difficult).


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/20/how-much-the-average-student-loan-borrower-owes-when-they-graduate.html


As a millenial, I think there are two big factors (1) Cultural change in preferences.  Millenials tend to marry later and live in the city, which makes suburban club life more difficult.  But maybe that will change as Millenials age.  (2) High investment parenting is the norm, making 36 holes a week a tough sell unless it's your only hobby.  It's much easier to take that same $10k and have a couple buddies trips to Bandon each year.  It seems like those destination courses are always busy with the younger crowd.  To me the real question is, 'Did Mike Keiser kill the mediocre country club?".  For my group of friends, the answer is yes, especially if you live in the northern half of the country where the course is unplayable for 4-5 months of the year.

[John Kavanaugh]

High investment parenting. Do you really believe that will outlast your generation?

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

[corey miller]

Sorry John Emerson..but do you have any special insight into the politics of those that have joined the great new clubs of the East End of Long Island? You really think they are somehow "Republican"?


Population growth has nothing/little to do with the growth of a luxury item that serves the top .01% financially.   Rather than poltical antipathy that millennials have for Old white guys perhaps it is more rooted in the economic policies we have had for the last twenty years..little income growth, increased income inequality, high debt levels (since everyone should go to a high powered school) and less disposable income with high local tax rates?


If Ian and others are correct, that there is anger and malice and visceral hate of old Republican white guys and what they stand for and what institutions they have "created".. wouldn't that show up in the guest round numbers at these pathetic clubs?

[Ian Andrew]

.... Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Ben,

I've enjoyed your posts on this thread (and in general too).
I've appreciated your patience too.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am not sure where Ian Mackenzie lives but I am not sure I agree with the White Republican thing when many of the "great" clubs are in Blue states and overwhelmingly blue metro areas. 


Using population growth as some sort of measure of "health of club industry" is also way off for a variety of reasons especially in light of the recent post by Jeff about the new clubs on the East End of Long Island...Do we really think that is a function of population growth or growth of the game?

Just in the small area of eastern Long Island twin forksThe BridgeEast HamptonAtlanticSebonackFriars HeadLong Island NationalThe Vineyards
Laurel Links 

Location in a blue states has zero to do with what kind a people patronize the club.

Oh, for God's sake...really...?


The geographic location of the club is not the issue. I cant believe that would need clarification.
It s the socio-demographic make-up of the club, regardless of location,  where the parallels are to be drawn.


I live in a VERY, VERY blue state.
I assure you, at most private clubs near Chicago, there are not many liberals.

[Mark_Fine]

It is the high fixed cost, it is lack of time, it is the amount of commitment (the need for flexibility), and it is their dwindling interest in the game, it is the age of most country club members (not the social scene millennials are looking for),..., the list goes on.  More and more of the “private” clubs are becoming accessible so why join if you can play there the few times you want.  The high end clubs are too expensive and of little interest socially. 

Golf is going through yet another period of change which all things go through.  It will come out ok but most country clubs as we know them will be much different.  The Pine Valleys and Oakmonts of the world don’t have to worry too much but even they will have to adapt in certain manners like allowing cell phones and having WiFi access and one day God forbid, allowing carts.  If all their members are too old to walk, they will need to do something.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sorry John Emerson..but do you have any special insight into the politics of those that have joined the great new clubs of the East End of Long Island? You really think they are somehow "Republican"?


Population growth has nothing/little to do with the growth of a luxury item that serves the top .01% financially.   Rather than poltical antipathy that millennials have for Old white guys perhaps it is more rooted in the economic policies we have had for the last twenty years..little income growth, increased income inequality, high debt levels (since everyone should go to a high powered school) and less disposable income with high local tax rates?


If Ian and others are correct, that there is anger and malice and visceral hate of old Republican white guys and what they stand for and what institutions they have "created".. wouldn't that show up in the guest round numbers at these pathetic clubs?

Holy crap...this is getting twisted. Please stop....;-)


If you (Corey) imply that I have ever said something to make you think that, in your words, "there is anger and malice and visceral hate of old Republican white guys and what they stand for"....

...then please just shoot me.
I presented data backed up by a source that was cited.

Please retain your own editorials as your own and cease projecting them on others.
Thank you.

[Joe Zucker]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Ben, I agree that you can never distill a large group down to a single (or even several) attributes.  And I also agree that cost is massive factor. But here we are talking about averages and trends, which do have an effect on average.  You say that this has nothing to do with millenial tendencies or wishes but that millenials are changing norms and choosing better entertainment.  It can't be both.

[SL_Solow]

Ian,  Speak for your own club.

[Michael Whitaker]

Country Clubs were always based on developing social and business connections. It was one of the primary places that “contacts” could be made and entertaining could be done to further one’s career. When the government killed the tax write offs for club dues and entertainment it began the death spiral of many clubs.


In today’s world “career development” has a totally different look that doesn’t require a club membership. In many cases, a club membership can nowadays hurt a career. It is a totally different dynamic.

[Ben Sims]

.... Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Ben,

I've enjoyed your posts on this thread (and in general too).
I've appreciated your patience too.

Ian,


I’ve been out of the GCA.com game for a long time and golf has taken a backseat to other interests. But some topics require input. I appreciate your kind words. Cheers.

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

[Ben Sims]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Ben, I agree that you can never distill a large group down to a single (or even several) attributes.  And I also agree that cost is massive factor. But here we are talking about averages and trends, which do have an effect on average.  You say that this has nothing to do with millenial tendencies or wishes but that millenials are changing norms and choosing better entertainment.  It can't be both.

Joe,


Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I do think this has nothing to do with the the generational tendencies of millennials, yes. What I was a less clear about is that millennials themselves aren’t changing trends. The built world around them is causing them to alter their choices. My generation was given the internet, immediate gratification, and conspicuous consumption. We didn’t invent it. I truly think we are responding to the world around us. We aren’t old enough to be truly calling the shots.

[mike_beene]

The reality is only a few outliers are members of country clubs. How many private club slots are there? I will use Dallas as an example. For 7 million people I bet there are a total of 5000 memberships available. Even if it's twice that, the point holds. Do you realize how few people even know a member of a club. And it is difficult to say what really happens because it is not an available option as members live longer and young people are told wait 10 years.

[Joe Zucker]

Thanks Ben.  That makes sense and I think you're right.  I also think Mike's point is astute.  The question is really about what the top 10% of millenials are doing, since those are the only ones who would ever join a club.  I'm not sure that's a simpler question to answer though.

[Mike_Young]

Perhaps it bears repeating. If your contribution to this thread involves something along the line of “millennials tend to...” or “millennials are...”, then my opinion is that you’ve missed the issue.

The reason this generation isn’t as apt to join a golf club has nothing to do with where they live or what their tendencies and wishes may be. Moreover, attempting to distill a 15-20yr generation as hipster downtowners with jones for craft beer, Snapchat, and liberalism is also a sure way to fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

It’s simple. Millennials don’t join golf clubs due to societal constraints, changing norms, and the availability of better entertainment. Simply, it costs too much and folks got better stuff to do.

Thanks for the lesson.
Many of us are parents of millenials. We get it. Saw it close up for 25+ years.


'Preciate the millennial-'splainin.
I feel so woke now...;-)

Ian Mackenzie,


My parents are relatively clueless about my motivations and interests except that they are aware of them. They are terrific parents, but they aren’t “in the fight” as I’ve said in other avenues of my life.  Please accept my apologies if you felt preached to, that wasn’t the intent. But I meant what I said, our generation isn’t easily distilled any more than the Boomers are.

Ben,
Do you happen to recall me telling you tht you would reach the point you are at now back when we were trying to set it up for you to work at ANGC one tourney.  you had the Canvas bag, the PGC membership and were really into it...I remember telling you there would be a time you would go away from the golf and later come back...for me it was whitewater kayaking until you age back into golf and kids are older...all is good...

[jeffwarne]

There has always been "better stuff to do" except for a brief period where a few misinformed souls bought the marketing/Tiger hype and thought golf was cool.
Now they've come to their senses and golf can stop trying to "grow" and be so many different things and can now revert back to those of us truly afflicted with the bug/passion.
Like any over saturated markets  many businesses will suffer and golf will still be golf.

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