[archie_struthers]

 


Matthew if you could have native that is beautiful and benign you would be in Brigadoon!

[Adam Clayman]

The issues I have with Bogey's opinion is that recovery shots, from forests, is often always the same. And hole after hole, of the same, hurts the variety required to appreciate a course fully, on a daily basis. Also, Tree lined dictated golf has the negative influence of turning newer golfers off to the sport, limiting future revenue sources, for all those in the industry.


While improperly maintained, or, unrecoverable native, is usually a choice made by whomever decides their presentation, and, is easier to alter, than cutting down 100's (or 1000's) of trees. Also, the excuse of too much time needed to hit a provisional does not ring true.

[Joe Hancock]

Option #3:


Groupings of trees, where appropriate. The rest is mown turf. The caveat would be that all areas of rough don’t need to be intensely maintained. Little or no irrigation would reduce mowing frequency and density, making the rough an easy place to find, and hit your ball. There are few places on a golf course that are less expensive to maintain than minimally maintained, mown rough.


But, then again, there’s no money in doing less.

[Mike Hendren]

Interesting comments. Thanks.  I did not mean to imply that native grass is a bad thing, regardless of its density or height.  Not all golf courses should accommodate or tolerate the likes of my game and frankly I have no business golfing the ball at some of the great courses in the world.  Absent a remarkable resurgence I have no business at Pine Valley or Prairie Dunes.  We all bring predispositions to the treehouse and mine is grounded in the course I grew up on and love more than any other.  It was essentially 60 acres of common Bermuda where the fairways were mowed once a week and the rough once a month during the hot and dry summer.  Only the greens were irrigated and if memory serves me correctly, the monthly dues were $15 when Dad joined at inception around 1970.  Only the gamblers played cartball. 

Two holes stick out in my mind in support of my preference.  The first is the 16th at Ballybunion where one might walk up the fairway and simultaneously extend both arms and drop a ball and not find either one.    Than again, I'm not keen on the fat man's squeeze as an architectural element.  The second, which I submit with great trepidation is the wonderful 4th at Crystal Downs.  Not knowing how to play the latter from the tee I hit a nicely drawn low-runner down the left hand side of the fairway from the tee.  My ball found the natives by a foot or so and three sand wedges later I was back in the fairway.  Perhaps I got what I deserved but I damned well didn't like it. 

As for Adam's contention that new players suffer more in the trees, I submit that I've never seen a successful foot wedge from the hay and I've never tweaked my back punching the ball out of the forest of no return.  Sometimes it's a matter of perspective.

I appreciate you folks going easy on me.

Bogey

[Steve Lang]

Michael,  should we start calling you "Double"?


When're you coming back to TX?  Come play The Woodlands, we'll treat you right!

[Sean_A]

I've played Sahalee but not Prairie Dunes.  As a higher handicapper I'd likely enjoy the former better than the latter.  I'd rather play out from under a tree canopy than search for a ball in the hay.  Most recently, I strongly preferred Dooks to Lahinch and Ballybunion Old for the same reason. 

I know this is a minority take but does it have merit?

Bogey

I don't like the sound of either option and really hope people don't see this issue in such stark terms. Both extremes are examples of poor presentation and each is as bad as the other in terms of taking away the best aspect of golf... the recovery shot.

Merry Christmas

[Dan Gallaway]

The playing corridors at Prairie Dunes are nearly twice as wide as Sahalee.  The shot is dictated for me at Sahalee.  As a mid-high handicapper, I found myself hitting out of the trees...a lot at Sahalee.  At PD (haven't played), I think I would have a greater chance of having a playable shot.  I can choose the swing that will give me the best chance of successs.  Less time outside of the corridors.  Capilano vs PD might be a fairer comparison?

[cary lichtenstein]

I think the shorter rough turf is way perferred by all levels of players so long as the balls are findable. I over 60 rounds is Scotland and Ireland, I had great caddies and never lost a ball

[Jason Thurman]

Searching for balls is my least favorite task embedded in the game of golf. It typically takes much less effort in the trees than in the native.


I'm confused by the "every recovery from the trees is the same" crowd. At my club, we create recovery shots from the trees. Sometimes there's a window high, sometimes low, sometimes you have to curve a shot around a tree. Hacking out of the native in the few spots on the course where you can find it, on the other hand, is never much more than a hit and hope. Assuming you find the ball, which is a hell of an assumption.


I can't fathom that Pinehurst 2 would be a better course if all the wooded areas were replaced with overgrown native grass areas. Conversely, Prairie Dunes might be my favorite course ever hole-for-hole, but it doesn't crack my 10 favorite courses to play. There's just too much tedious ball searching involved in a round there, too many holes that lose interest in a match because at least one competitor goes in-pocket along the way, and too much emphasis on defensive play for a >10 handicap.

[Kalen Braley]

Jason,

I'm just as surprised as your "Every shot out of the native is the same" assumption.  I've played lots of natives which range from whispy, thin, thick, tall, patchy, etc based on time of year and how often it gets water. Sure, the hit and hope scenarios do occur but i usually find far more variability in playing options than from the trees.

[Jason Thurman]

Kalen, maybe it's a geographical thing. I live east of the Mississippi in the transition zone, like Mike. I'm trying to think of the closest course I've played that has a fair amount of native, but where it's not necessary to just automatically reload a provisional every time a ball goes in. I keep landing on Kingsley, which is about an 8 hour drive away.


Looking westward, it seems like native cuts in Colorado, Nebraska, Oregon, etc are more playable. At least sometimes...


Really, you could probably assign a 1-5 scale to vegetation thickness, and apply it to native areas just as easily as wooded areas. Augusta would be a 1 for grass thickness, and a place like Kingsley might be a 2. TOC would be a 1 for trees, and Holston Hills might be a 2. Windsong Farm is like a 5 for grasses, and Persimmon Ridge is a 5 for trees.


Whether we're talking trees or grass, odds are that things are going to get tedious if areas that rate a 4 or 5 are regularly in play.

[Kalen Braley]

Jason,

That makes perfect sense for the disconnect as I've played 95% of my golf in the West, (California, Washington, and Utah mostly). Two main factors in all likelihood.  Outside of Western Washington and Oregon, and true Nor Cal... its all fairly low humidity with long dry spells of no rain.  A great combination for keeping the rough intermittent and relatively wispy...

[David Harshbarger]

Searching for balls is my least favorite task embedded in the game of golf.

This ^^^^^^ should be the first lesson every superintendent and greens committee learns.  It should be tattooed on the backs of hands, interleaved subliminally between frames of every golf channel broadcast, and forcibly implanted through chemically-aided aversion therapy if necessary.

[Joe Hancock]

Searching for balls is my least favorite task embedded in the game of golf.

This ^^^^^^ should be the first lesson every superintendent and greens committee learns.  It should be tattooed on the backs of hands, interleaved subliminally between frames of every golf channel broadcast, and forcibly implanted through chemically-aided aversion therapy if necessary.

See “Option #3” above......it’s astounding how little attention simplicity gets when complicated is in the room.

[Pete Lavallee]

We are quite lucky here in SD that most munis feature minimal rough. The exception being Torrey Pines, which is growing a bumper crop for the upcoming Farmers. We get the worst as they grow a hay field and then crop it to 3” just before the Tournament. It’s sooo bad that the Men’s Club there said search for 1 minute and if not found take a free drop in the fairway!

[Ryan Van Culin]

For me, a big consideration of native grass vs. trees is how it affects the shape of your shot. My home course has a good mix of both, but we have removed a lot of tall grass to improve pace of play.


My biggest issue with trees is when they force you into a certain shot, i.e. a dogleg left with trees lining both sides forces you to hit a draw, whereas with tall grass, I could hit a fade over the grass and into the fairway.

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