Give me trees over tall/native grasses.

[Mike Hendren]

I've played Sahalee but not Prairie Dunes.  As a higher handicapper I'd likely enjoy the former better than the latter.  I'd rather play out from under a tree canopy than search for a ball in the hay.  Most recently, I strongly preferred Dooks to Lahinch and Ballybunion Old for the same reason. 

I know this is a minority take but does it have merit?

Bogey

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Mike,


I think that you may be more speaking about density of tall grass/prairie grass.


My only knock on Prairie Dunes, which is a GREAT golf course, was that many areas of native grass were so thick that finding a ball was very unlikely.  That being said, it's plenty wide.


Courses like Ballyneal, Sand Hills, and many of the courses overseas have much thinner native grass, so that ball-hunting is short-lived, and often your lie is good enough that you are tempted to try something you shouldn't...which is perfect strategy in my mind...half or 3/4 shot penalties.


Of course native grass thickness varies from course to course and area to area, so it takes real management to get it right.


If you are truly blocked by trees, there is rarely an option other than sideways.  That's a full-shot penalty.  Sahalee is beautiful in its own way, but if you are well offline you have no options.


I play at a century+ old parkland course in Mass., and I'm trying to keep us on track (with many others) for less trees and more native grass (which we are doing slowly!), but the native is a tough sell when it's planted and very thick for the first couple years before it matures.  As much as you try to keep it to out-of-play areas, golf balls will find it!   

[Ronald Montesano]

I continue these thoughts, and connect density of grass, to density of trees. Is there room between trunks, to fashion a recovery shot? Or, as Brad ponders, is the only play a lateral one? Also, are the tree trunks trimmed up, or do you not have so much as a swing?

[mike_malone]

I want to find a ground cover idea that forces the chip out but avoids losing balls. Mulch, wood chips are two that I have thought of. Any other low maintenance ideas you can suggest?

[archie_struthers]

 


It's hard to keep areas playable but one of the best superintendents I've know always said just take it to the dirt. Cut it so low that it either dies or is hardy enough to survive. It is an art to keep play areas free in just the right spots so as not to lose balls!


Personally straw mulch or wood chips doesn't do it for me.

[Tyler Kearns]

I find the appearance of native areas to be wonderful and can help give the course a sense of place.  Playability is key, and as Bogey mentioned earlier, the native at Prairie Dunes is a knock against the course and rightfully so.  Playing in fear of automatic lost balls to the right and left of each fairway is not a great experience and while Prairie Dunes is wide, it is also a pretty windy location.


Native areas should be out-of-play and out of the range of irrigation.  If native areas are desired for in-play areas, planting such in "impoverished soil" can help to keep density light.  Regardless, these areas do require some maintenance to pull weeds and non-desirable species to keep these areas looking good and more playable for errant shots.


Tyler   

[Dan_Callahan]

The effectiveness of native areas, in my opinion, is linked to the availability of forecaddies. At both The Country Club and Shinnecock, my round would have been at least 10 shots higher (and exponentially more frustrating) if not for a forecaddie. Balls that would otherwise be lost were marked for me, and in almost every case were easily playable.

[Jason Topp]

I understand. 


https://wsfarm.com/

[Carl Rogers]

It's hard to keep areas playable but one of the best superintendents I've know always said just take it to the dirt. Cut it so low that it either dies or is hardy enough to survive. It is an art to keep play areas free in just the right spots so as not to lose balls!


Personally straw mulch or wood chips doesn't do it for me.

The scruffy non-descript short length "grass" makes a lot of sense to me.

[David Wuthrich]

I'll take grass over trees any day of the week!

[Ian Mackenzie]

I've played Sahalee but not Prairie Dunes.  As a higher handicapper I'd likely enjoy the former better than the latter.  I'd rather play out from under a tree canopy than search for a ball in the hay.  Most recently, I strongly preferred Dooks to Lahinch and Ballybunion Old for the same reason. 

I know this is a minority take but does it have merit?

Bogey

There's a golf course out there for everyone and, fortunately, you can choose to play one that suits your preferences.


Sounds like you prefer parkland courses to links courses. You are certainly not alone and there is no "right" answer to your query.


Or, is it a maintenance issue?


Or, as a higher h-capper, do you think of angles at all or are you just happy when your ball finally finds the putting surface?


Are you playing the course or does the course play you?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Outside of this group, I think the OP represents the majority opinion. 


As mentioned, one key to "natives" is scruffiness and thin turf.  For fescues, its important that they don't get over irrigated, which is just what tends to happen on the edge of the maintained turf, depending on irrigation complexity.


At the Old Course one year, the caddies nicknamed me Sevvie as I found and played at least a half a dozen balls from the native turf areas, and surprisingly all full shots that ended up on or near the green.  If light enough to play out of, they are great fun.

[SL_Solow]

One issue not discussed is the impact of trees on turf.  They compete for light and water/nutrients  and impact on air circulation in a manner entirely different from native grasses.  Thus if you prefer trees to natives, you had better make sure they are managed properly.  I never knew anyone who preferred playing shots off of bark or roots as opposed to turf.

[Mike Hendren]

I've played Sahalee but not Prairie Dunes.  As a higher handicapper I'd likely enjoy the former better than the latter.  I'd rather play out from under a tree canopy than search for a ball in the hay.  Most recently, I strongly preferred Dooks to Lahinch and Ballybunion Old for the same reason. 

I know this is a minority take but does it have merit?

Bogey

There's a golf course out there for everyone and, fortunately, you can choose to play one that suits your preferences.


Sounds like you prefer parkland courses to links courses. You are certainly not alone and there is no "right" answer to your query.  Ceteris paribus I'd play links golf 8 out of 10 rounds. I will say the presence or absence of trees rarely has an impact on my assessment of the merits of any one course, absent undue encroachment or turf issues as Shelly aluded to. 


Or, is it a maintenance issue?  More the nature of the actual grass. I don't mind the whispy stuff regardless of height.   I adore natives for texture, but not within the field of play for virtually all skill levels.  I am particularly soured where the natives have been encouraged by sprinkler systems of water run-off near fairways.   


Or, as a higher h-capper, do you think of angles at all or are you just happy when your ball finally finds the putting surface?  You paint a broad spectrum.  I have the benefit of having once been a 4 and now likely a 20 or so. I dare say for 90% of golfers, the game is about execution, not angles.  I once could manage my misses and virtually eliminate double-bogeys.  That's strategic, is it not? Or is that allowing the course to play me as you state below?


Are you playing the course or does the course play you?  That's catchy!  I consider the golf course a "playing field" since I grew up on a simple nine-holer where you could launch a ball in any direction, go find it and hit it again.  Or play cross country from every tee to every green.  So I guess I play "on" golf course, just like one plays games or sports "on" an athletic field.

One other issue is relevant for the card-n-pencil crowd:  It nearly impossible to play by the rules while searching for lost balls in tall grass.  I ain't heading back to the tee and I sure don't want to waste time on the tee by launching provisionals.  I must also admit that I hit the ball extremely low and rarely find myself in a forest from which I cannot escape. 

Nobody ever hit a lost ball.

Thoughtful questions, Ian.  Thank you.

Mike

[Rick Lane]

Maybe the happy medium is a bit of both on a parkland course.   As mentioned in an earlier thread a while back, what they have done at Philly Cricket seems just about right to me.   They reduced what was groves, bunches, and rows of trees to intermittent individual trees, which not only lets you see the beauty of the individual tree, but makes the turf healthier, makes recovery shots more available and quite fun, and gives you room to plant some native grass if you want.  We are trying to head in this direction at my old parkland club as well, as too many trees were planted in the 40s, we are now thinning them and making native areas.   It’s a process.....

[Ian Mackenzie]

Bogey, if you were once a 4 and are now a 20, what are you doing in the third week of July next summer...?...


I do agree with you that fescue/native grasses that are in too close proximity with realistic playing corridors can be a gigantic PITA - especially as it is usually ME who is behind the guy who is knee-deep in the cabbage every other hole...


But, I don't think that a trade-off between trees and grasses is necessarily a "1:1 issue".


Selective use of native grass areas can be as effect as a pond sometimes. Meaning:1)  if youre in it, you hit a bad shot and deserve a penalty and 2) it gives you something to think about as a ball hit in proximity to that hazard may actually be the preferred angle into the green.


However, if it's a maintenance plan by the club and super and not integral to the design, then grasses that border fairways on all sides can come across as just penal. They will slow play and piss off players.


Who wants that?

[Kalen Braley]

I've played a fair amount of courses in the PNW also, and what bogey doesn't mention is unless the course is vigilant about removing smaller trees/shrubs/bushes and the occasional leaf cleanup...under those trees... lost balls can be just as prevalent.

P.S.  I've also seen a fair bit of foot wedges and other such nonsense by the pencil and card type when their ball is stymied behind a tree or low hanging branches. 

[Thomas Dai]

As long as there aren’t big hungry for meat wild critters around then these are nature’s own removers of tall grasses and scrub and a whole lot more too if you let them - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j3xNiY0blfo - friendly and sociable they are well.
Atb

[John Emerson]

The biggest issue is with these native areas are planting the correct species of grass and not watering them.  If the correct mix of natives/fine fescues are planted and water managed then they usually work out really well.  It’s when people use tall fescues and KY blue grasses for natives is when they become extra penal.  It also can be a bit of a chore to turn all the full circle irrigation heads to properly positioned part circles as so they don’t water the long roughed/native areas.  They must not receive ANY supplemental water...this is the key

[Ian Mackenzie]

The biggest issue is with these native areas are planting the correct species of grass and not watering them.  If the correct mix of natives/fine fescues are planted and water managed then they usually work out really well.  It’s when people use tall fescues and KY blue grasses for natives is when they become extra penal.  It also can be a bit of a chore to turn all the full circle irrigation heads to properly positioned part circles as so they don’t water the long roughed/native areas.  They must not receive ANY supplemental water...this is the key

This gets to a point I tried to touch on: Is native grass part of the natural landscape or has it been added by the super/club?


If anyone is concenred about irrigation heads hitting the grasses, then Bogey's point is all the more valid.


There is a club here in Chicago that worked with the USGA and Monsanto to make a "custom version" of RoundUp just for weeding native grass areas.


No matter what, most clubs light their grasses on fire every year anyway. And when there is lots of rain, the grasses get thick and balls are lost and players are pissed.

[Tom_Doak]

Well for one thing, Bogey lives in the south, and there are still no solutions for playable 'native' turf areas using warm-season grasses.


For another thing, the recommended seeding rates for grasses are way too high for native areas.  They should be seeded at 1/4 the recommended rate, or even less.


And no irrigation system regardless of complexity will keep from overwatering native areas if you insist on keeping the grass green right up to the edge of the native.  The way to keep native areas playable is to let the irrigation bleed out to nothing before you get to the native.  This looks untidy during a drought, so it's down to a choice between playability and aesthetics.

[Peter Pallotta]

On the one course I play semi-regularly that has tall/native grasses, I treat it as a water hazard. Or should I say, it treats me like a water hazard does. That's okay -- it's good to be scared, and I like the course anyway and it does have reasonable width. But yes, if it just came to playability I suppose I'd take all but the very densest forest of trees over that tall/native grass. On the other hand, it's not all about playability, and aesthetically I prefer the tall/native grass. So I guess for me, it's almost a toss up...but I think I'd take the tall grass. I'll take my medicine, 'cause I put myself in trouble. Plus: there is something simpler and more elegant about just declaring the ball lost/dead and taking the penalty strokes and moving on, rather than ingloriously trying the hero shot out of the trees only to hear that "crack...crack...f--k!" and doing it all over again.
P 

[SL_Solow]

Two points.  First, Tom's point re seeding rates is spot on.  We have reduced seeding rates well below those prescribed continuously each time we have added a native area.  It takes some time for them to become established and we have had to do some thinning as well.  Second, the revised rules permit a club to declare native areas as penalty areas and therefore permit a drop without walking back.

[John Emerson]

Two points.  First, Tom's point re seeding rates is spot on.  We have reduced seeding rates well below those prescribed continuously each time we have added a native area.  It takes some time for them to become established and we have had to do some thinning as well.  Second, the revised rules permit a club to declare native areas as penalty areas and therefore permits a drop without walking back.

The seeding rates are designed to provide the highest possible coverage at germination so backing them (rates) off is a good idea.  I’m a big fan clumpy/patchy long roughed areas. this allows to find your ball, and actually be able to hit it and advance it.  Another problem when you have a thinner canopy is dealing with weeds throughout the year.  Driving a sprayer through the long rough too late in the season kinda ruins the look with ugly tire tracks.  Double edge sword I guess. Do you live with the weeds, or do you take tons of time/labor spraying weeds.  I know in my part of the country the most noxious weeds tend to thrive in these types of conditions we are seeking.

[Matthew Rose]

Ballyneal was really great that way.... I hit some balls into the native grass but I almost always found them, and most of the time I was able to play it as well. So as long as the long grass is done this way it works for me.

I played a very heavily treed course growing up, probably a little too heavily.... but there were times where one could find little pockets in the woods that were open and they allowed you to go up and over.

So I suppose the key thought here is the allowance of recovery, regardless of the vegetation.