[JC Jones]

AG, you should visit HarbourTown 14 and Kiawah Ocean 17 to see what Im talking about.


I will say, I now want to play the course with you because I am fascinated by the fact that you walk it.  My preference is walking (though Im not one of those new fangled walkers who thinks everyone needs to play the game that way) but I would not have considered that a possibility at Tobacco Road given the transitions (you mentioned 14 to 15) and the hazards.


Plus, I'd like to point out to you, on a hole by hole basis, how right I am and how wrong you are 

[Kyle Harris]

Perhaps the real question is that of which threshold of skill do the options disappear at Tobacco Road?


I can't imagine there are many options for a player than can fly the ball 300+ off the tee.

But if the player only carries it 200...........

[Kyle Harris]

AG, you should visit HarbourTown 14 and Kiawah Ocean 17 to see what Im talking about.


I will say, I now want to play the course with you because I am fascinated by the fact that you walk it.  My preference is walking (though Im not one of those new fangled walkers who thinks everyone needs to play the game that way) but I would not have considered that a possibility at Tobacco Road given the transitions (you mentioned 14 to 15) and the hazards.


Plus, I'd like to point out to you, on a hole by hole basis, how right I am and how wrong you are 

I've heard more than one person point out that you could eliminate #17 (though I share your disdain for #16) and put a reasonable Par 3 up the hill between #12 and 13.

[JC Jones]

Were one to do that, it would be an interesting 4 par playing from current 16 tee up and around the hill to a green near 18 tee.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG, you should visit HarbourTown 14 and Kiawah Ocean 17 to see what Im talking about.


I will say, I now want to play the course with you because I am fascinated by the fact that you walk it.  My preference is walking (though Im not one of those new fangled walkers who thinks everyone needs to play the game that way) but I would not have considered that a possibility at Tobacco Road given the transitions (you mentioned 14 to 15) and the hazards.


Plus, I'd like to point out to you, on a hole by hole basis, how right I am and how wrong you are 

JC,

I have played both Kiawah and Harbour Town, the latter twice just last April.  In the same way the Pete Dye's work reminds me of no one else, I didn't think of Mike Strantz when I played 14 at Harbour Town.  It's reciprocal; I don't think of Dye when I play a Strantz hole, either. 


Thanks for the offer to point out the minutiae of how wrong I am, but I'm already married, so no need for that.  And while I don't expect that I'd change your mind about much, given the degree to which you are wrong, I KNOW to a certainty that you wouldn't change mine.

 For example, you include 12 as a hole with a bailout to the right, while a shot to the left leaves a shorter and less blind shot into the green; you're dead wrong on two of the three items.  12 is an almost 90 degree left dogleg, and the "bailout" you're talking about is actually the center of the fairway, not right.  The issue on that line is the waste areas on the OUTSIDE of the dogleg, so getting the right distance for that shot is the critical judgement on the tee.  By contrast, while the left line DOES leave a slightly shorter shot in IF you can stay out of the trees and the waste area, the second shot is MORE blind, not less; MUCH more blind! 


And several of the holes you cite as having right side bailout areas are actually doglegs, with what you call bailouts really being the center of the fairway.  That there are risk/reward options that involve hitting away from the center of the fairway pretty much takes care of "one dimensional strategy".  I'm 67, and on 4 I can't take the left line and go for that little shelf in front of the green anymore, but I shoot the distance and think about it, just like I did 20 years ago when it was still an option.  But I'm not "bailing out" when I hit the center of the fairway and have a wedge in on 4, and to think of the hole that way is one dimensional thinking.

JC, whether its with me or somebody else, keep going to TR; I'll bet you get it someday!

[JC Jones]

AG, you should visit HarbourTown 14 and Kiawah Ocean 17 to see what Im talking about.


I will say, I now want to play the course with you because I am fascinated by the fact that you walk it.  My preference is walking (though Im not one of those new fangled walkers who thinks everyone needs to play the game that way) but I would not have considered that a possibility at Tobacco Road given the transitions (you mentioned 14 to 15) and the hazards.


Plus, I'd like to point out to you, on a hole by hole basis, how right I am and how wrong you are 

JC,

I have played both Kiawah and Harbour Town, the latter twice just last April.  In the same way the Pete Dye's work reminds me of no one else, I didn't think of Mike Strantz when I played 14 at Harbour Town.  It's reciprocal; I don't think of Dye when I play a Strantz hole, either. 


Thanks for the offer to point out the minutiae of how wrong I am, but I'm already married, so no need for that.  And while I don't expect that I'd change your mind about much, given the degree to which you are wrong, I KNOW to a certainty that you wouldn't change mine.

 For example, you include 12 as a hole with a bailout to the right, while a shot to the left leaves a shorter and less blind shot into the green; you're dead wrong on two of the three items.  12 is an almost 90 degree left dogleg, and the "bailout" you're talking about is actually the center of the fairway, not right.  The issue on that line is the waste areas on the OUTSIDE of the dogleg, so getting the right distance for that shot is the critical judgement on the tee.  By contrast, while the left line DOES leave a slightly shorter shot in IF you can stay out of the trees and the waste area, the second shot is MORE blind, not less; MUCH more blind! 


And several of the holes you cite as having right side bailout areas are actually doglegs, with what you call bailouts really being the center of the fairway.  That there are risk/reward options that involve hitting away from the center of the fairway pretty much takes care of "one dimensional strategy".  I'm 67, and on 4 I can't take the left line and go for that little shelf in front of the green anymore, but I shoot the distance and think about it, just like I did 20 years ago when it was still an option.  But I'm not "bailing out" when I hit the center of the fairway and have a wedge in on 4, and to think of the hole that way is one dimensional thinking.

JC, whether its with me or somebody else, keep going to TR; I'll bet you get it someday!

12 as a near 90* dogleg?  Now I know you need your head checked!!! 


The carry from the back tee across the edge of the waste area and into the neck is 230.  You've got 265 to reach the edge of the right side of the hole, and another 30 yards of width.  Short right bail out vs long up the left.....just like I pointed out.  And that green is blind from either angle but I'd rather hit at a flag I can see with a wedge than a 6 or 7 iron from longer away (which is why the second bail out is also right of that green).

[A.G._Crockett]

AG, you should visit HarbourTown 14 and Kiawah Ocean 17 to see what Im talking about.


I will say, I now want to play the course with you because I am fascinated by the fact that you walk it.  My preference is walking (though Im not one of those new fangled walkers who thinks everyone needs to play the game that way) but I would not have considered that a possibility at Tobacco Road given the transitions (you mentioned 14 to 15) and the hazards.


Plus, I'd like to point out to you, on a hole by hole basis, how right I am and how wrong you are 

JC,

I have played both Kiawah and Harbour Town, the latter twice just last April.  In the same way the Pete Dye's work reminds me of no one else, I didn't think of Mike Strantz when I played 14 at Harbour Town.  It's reciprocal; I don't think of Dye when I play a Strantz hole, either. 


Thanks for the offer to point out the minutiae of how wrong I am, but I'm already married, so no need for that.  And while I don't expect that I'd change your mind about much, given the degree to which you are wrong, I KNOW to a certainty that you wouldn't change mine.

 For example, you include 12 as a hole with a bailout to the right, while a shot to the left leaves a shorter and less blind shot into the green; you're dead wrong on two of the three items.  12 is an almost 90 degree left dogleg, and the "bailout" you're talking about is actually the center of the fairway, not right.  The issue on that line is the waste areas on the OUTSIDE of the dogleg, so getting the right distance for that shot is the critical judgement on the tee.  By contrast, while the left line DOES leave a slightly shorter shot in IF you can stay out of the trees and the waste area, the second shot is MORE blind, not less; MUCH more blind! 


And several of the holes you cite as having right side bailout areas are actually doglegs, with what you call bailouts really being the center of the fairway.  That there are risk/reward options that involve hitting away from the center of the fairway pretty much takes care of "one dimensional strategy".  I'm 67, and on 4 I can't take the left line and go for that little shelf in front of the green anymore, but I shoot the distance and think about it, just like I did 20 years ago when it was still an option.  But I'm not "bailing out" when I hit the center of the fairway and have a wedge in on 4, and to think of the hole that way is one dimensional thinking.

JC, whether its with me or somebody else, keep going to TR; I'll bet you get it someday!

12 as a near 90* dogleg?  Now I know you need your head checked!!! 


The carry from the back tee across the edge of the waste area and into the neck is 230.  You've got 265 to reach the edge of the right side of the hole, and another 30 yards of width.  Short right bail out vs long up the left.....just like I pointed out.  And that green is blind from either angle but I'd rather hit at a flag I can see with a wedge than a 6 or 7 iron from longer away (which is why the second bail out is also right of that green).

JC,

As long as you insist on referring to the center of a fairway as a " short right bailout", while at the same time saying that there is another option available, but that all of this taken together amounts to "one dimensional strategy", there really isn't much to talk about; your logic speaks for itself. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you go to Pinehurst you should play it.  Everyone should play it once for its artistic and visual value.  If you like it more than #2, #4, Pine Needles, Mid Pines or Southern Pines, you should have your head checked. 

I tell people to play it once, but I agree it's a relatively easy course on which to score if you can just play to the wide areas and avoid taking on more than you can pull off most every time.

It's worth seeing once just because of how unique it is. Whether you want to go back a second time, well, I'll leave that to the individual. In my experience, people are divided.

But I just went to check, and Golf Digest has it as #52 in their Top 100 Public Courses in America -- some 25 spots ahead of Pine Needles and 40 spots ahead of Mid Pines.

Oh my. I think given the classic ten rounds, I'm going 6 or 7 at Pine Needles and 3 or 4 at Mid Pines. And none at TR.

[JC Jones]

If you go to Pinehurst you should play it.  Everyone should play it once for its artistic and visual value.  If you like it more than #2, #4, Pine Needles, Mid Pines or Southern Pines, you should have your head checked. 

I tell people to play it once, but I agree it's a relatively easy course on which to score if you can just play to the wide areas and avoid taking on more than you can pull off most every time.

It's worth seeing once just because of how unique it is. Whether you want to go back a second time, well, I'll leave that to the individual. In my experience, people are divided.

But I just went to check, and Golf Digest has it as #52 in their Top 100 Public Courses in America -- some 25 spots ahead of Pine Needles and 40 spots ahead of Mid Pines.

Oh my. I think given the classic ten rounds, I'm going 6 or 7 at Pine Needles and 3 or 4 at Mid Pines. And none at TR.

I concur with this

[Edward Glidewell]

Count me as another who would choose to play at both Mid Pines and Pine Needles over Tobacco Road, as well as Dormie Club and Pinehurst #4 (never played #2 or any other Pinehurst area courses).


I also think that Caledonia and Bulls Bay are better than Tobacco Road just among Strantz courses.

[Tim_Weiman]

Gentlemen:


It has been a very long time since I played Tobacco Road, so I won’t be able to contribute anything of substance to this thread.


What I will say is that this thread, IMO, is GolfClubAtlas.com Discussion Group at its best. Really a pleasure to read everyone’s contribution and to see the discussion and debate so focused on the subject as opposed to personal attacks so common on the Internet today.


Great work!

[Ian Andrew]

Tobacco Road is a favourite of mine.
It's a great example of swinging for the fences at every turn.
Not everything works out, but fortunately for us most ideas did.

It's a great example of heroic architecture.
You have the opportunity to do something epic ... or pay a horrible price when you come up short.
I like that type of golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Every course does not have to please every customer.


Tobacco Road has a loyal following, and is doing well financially as far as I can tell.  Many who like the genteel character of Pinehurst will not be attracted to it, while others find it the perfect antidote after one too many genteel courses.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ian - except that it isn't. It seems an example of 'faux heroic' architecture instead.

Tom - you're being kind, which I like and appreciate, but you're being unusually 'relative'. 

I go back to my first post. I know TR in a unique way - only through the descriptions and judgments of posters whose opinions I value.

Through that lens the course must be a special one indeed -- because their 'descriptions' are so at odds with their 'judgments'.

When a Sean A tells me that TR is 'a very very good course' but has  never ascribed to it any of the traits & qualities that he himself usually uses to describe 'very very good' courses, there must be something else going on.

I'm open to the theory that TR is a course where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. But then again, not one poster I've read has ever described the course that way either!

I'm also open to the possibility that TR exists in a realm outside the conventional and beyond categories -- but then, Golf Digest is all about categories and conventions and it has the course ranked #52 - Public!

It's all very confusing. Or, let's say 'intriguing' instead. A.G. loves the course and has played it 25 times; Erik in a head to head to head with Pine Needles and Mid Pines would play it zero times.

I can't think of another course so polarizing -- which may not necessarily be a bad thing, but which isn't automatically a good thing either, is it?

For my tastes & temperament, this particular 'court of opinion' has much too much of the kerfuffle about it to inspire confidence.

[Sean_A]

Pietro

I can get right down to it, I don't like the walk. There are too many long walks between greens and tees. This for me is the single biggest problem. There are other issues such as too many sharp doglegs and greens which are long and narrow. But as Ian says, there is a lot of cool stuff as well. Enough, I think, to give The Road the benefit of the doubt for visitor play. Bottom line, The Road makes me smile and that is rare in my experience. Your last sentence above is ironic because The Road is designed to erode confidence because it has golfers asking themselves an awful lot questions during the round.

Happy Hockey

[A.G._Crockett]

Gentlemen:


It has been a very long time since I played Tobacco Road, so I won’t be able to contribute anything of substance to this thread.


What I will say is that this thread, IMO, is GolfClubAtlas.com Discussion Group at its best. Really a pleasure to read everyone’s contribution and to see the discussion and debate so focused on the subject as opposed to personal attacks so common on the Internet today.


Great work!

Tim,

JC called me a moron, and said I needed my head examined.  I'm not saying he's wrong, but still...

[A.G._Crockett]

If you go to Pinehurst you should play it.  Everyone should play it once for its artistic and visual value.  If you like it more than #2, #4, Pine Needles, Mid Pines or Southern Pines, you should have your head checked. 

I tell people to play it once, but I agree it's a relatively easy course on which to score if you can just play to the wide areas and avoid taking on more than you can pull off most every time.

It's worth seeing once just because of how unique it is. Whether you want to go back a second time, well, I'll leave that to the individual. In my experience, people are divided.

But I just went to check, and Golf Digest has it as #52 in their Top 100 Public Courses in America -- some 25 spots ahead of Pine Needles and 40 spots ahead of Mid Pines.

Oh my. I think given the classic ten rounds, I'm going 6 or 7 at Pine Needles and 3 or 4 at Mid Pines. And none at TR.

I concur with this

I'm really glad; this will improve the pace of play for me at Tobacco Road; fewer guys bitching and looking for lost balls!  Win-win...

[JC Jones]

AG,


When I called you a moron and said you needed your head examined, I did it from a place of love and care.   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

But as Ian says, there is a lot of cool stuff as well. Enough, I think, to give The Road the benefit of the doubt for visitor play. Bottom line, The Road makes me smile and that is rare in my experience.

I'd play it zero times out of ten against some of the other courses in the area, yeah, but I've played it three times, and I think anyone interested in GCA should at least see it once. Anyone interested in GOLF should see it once, really.

Decide for yourself. You probably won't be too middle-ground - it's a divisive course (not in a bad way, just in how extreme it can be) - but at least you'll have something to say, and you'll see what all the chatter (good and bad) has been about. You might love it. You probably won't hate it.

When I say divisive, that seems to be the blend. People love it or they're just kinda "meh." I don't think many actually "hate" it.

[Ronald Montesano]

prorsus credibile est, quia ineptum est

[Tim Gavrich]

This thread has been fascinating, but I have always thought that much of Tobacco Road's brilliance is wrapped up in some ineffable quality it possesses that extremely few other courses (that I've seen, anyway) have.


Sure, if you want to apply a mainstream rubric for evaluating golf courses to TR, it's going to come up short against the likes of Pine Needles and No. 2 and a lot of other courses.


So what? Strantz was doing something very different at Tobacco Road than, say, Ross, which makes that sort of straight-up comparison reductive.


Tobacco Road is as much an object of land art as it is a golf course in the traditional sense, so I think it needs to be evaluated in a different way. Strategic merit is all some golf courses have to recommend them (not that this is a bad thing). But if you're setting aside the epic and fascinating physical product while you nitpick the basic strategic elements of the course at Tobacco Road, you are fundamentally misunderstanding it.

[Dan_Callahan]

I first played TR about 15 years ago. I had played lots of courses prior, but when I stood on the first tee at TR it hit me that I had never seen anything like it. That thought stayed with me throughout my round. Some holes made me shake my head. Some holes made me laugh. Maintenance back then wasn't great. There were a few greens that I thought were way too shallow for the shot required. But it's a course that stuck with me ever since. I've gone back a few times, and had the same reaction each time.

There may be "better" courses in the area. I have played a few of the Pinehurst courses, although none since #2 and #4 go reworked. But for someone to be in that part of the country and not play TR would be a huge missed opportunity to see something truly unique. Even when it doesn't work, I can appreciate the boldness and creativity of the design.

I found this to be true at Stonehouse (which is probably the worst of his courses and yet ... there are still some audacious holes that make it worth a visit) and RNK and Tot Hill Farm as well (and lacking at Caledonia, ironically). TR, in my opinion, is the high water mark for the execution of Srantz's vision.

[Kalen Braley]

As a lover of quirk, TR is absolutely on the top of my wish list for quirky/unconventional courses.  Everything i've seen in pictures and otherwise has me fairly convinced I would love the place..


Going back to Tom's statement, Pinehurst #2 doesn't look particularly compelling especially when you factor in the penal nature of nearly every green complex and the massive green fees.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean, Tim - thanks.
You helped me understand my issue with all that I've read about TR.
For me: there's much too much the 'hand of man' there, too much the 'mind of man'.
I've got enough of my own doubts, fears and quivering indecisions to want or need an architect laying even more on my shoulders!
If it was (or appeared to be) Nature that was adding to my confusion and insecurities I wouldn't mind -- it would feel like a test the benevolent universe was offering me, for my learning and ultimate benefit.
But if it's another person creating this test, no thanks -- unless maybe it was a flawless test, beautifully executed. Then I could at least appreciate it for what it was, in and of itself, regardless of how it impacted me.
P
   

[Tommy Williamsen]

I’ve played TR a half dozen times. The only one dimensional thing about it is that it requires the player to hit quality shots. It asks the player to hit it left to right and right to left. The pucker factor is high. Even a straightforward hole like number ten asks for three well struck shots. I’m not sure I understand how it can be one dimensional.

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