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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« on: December 11, 2019, 11:47:53 PM »
Realizing that mowing heights are drastically different than 75/100 years ago and that tees have been moved back what courses best reflect the original as to bunkering and green shape and size, routing , and other things like trees?


After we know the ideal courses we may be able to focus the discussion about original intent.
AKA Mayday

Tal Oz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2019, 01:23:40 AM »
Chicago Golf Club. There's now a black set of tees added on 6 holes and very few trees even remotely in play. The same routing, green shape and size since Raynor redid the course in 1925.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 06:44:32 AM »
I was going to say Chicago Golf, too.  There has not been much to restore there - just cutting trees and getting mowing lines correct.  There is still one bunker to put back (a fairway bunker at the 11th).


Holston Hills was another that took very little physical work:  to restore the bunkers we just removed sod and added drainage and sand!  But they did eventually build USGA greens, where Chicago's greens are still original.



We have restored several courses as accurately as we could - The Valley Club, Pasatiempo, Bel Air, SFGC, Shoreacres, and a few others I'm forgetting at 6 am. But all of those required a fair amount of interpretation of aerial photos to rebuild things that had been physically changed, and it's impossible to say if we got them 100% right.  All I can say is, that was the goal in each of those cases.

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 07:08:47 AM »
Highlands Links in Canada.

I was pretty careful about putting the everything back the way it was. I didn't understand all of Thompson's choices, the symbolism in the bunkers in particular, but I figured there should be that one course of his that everyone can play in its original form.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Peter Pallotta

Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 08:37:39 AM »
This is interesting. When does 'honouring' the greats go too far? when is it too respectful?  [I know architects probably know the answer, on a case by case basis].

The story goes that, when he was in California and really struggling with drug addiction and mental health issues, and also very drunk, Charlie Parker recorded a version of "Lover Man" that he could barely get through, and that he subsequently hated and begged the producer not to release. But the record company released it anyway -- and so great was the respect other musicians had for him, and so iconic was the recording, that for years afterwards young alto players copied/played sections of it note for note...including the *mistakes*! 

The golden age greats did make mistakes sometimes, no? or at least were not always at their best?   

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 09:30:40 AM »
Peter,
The point is that a few great courses are worth honoring as much as possible. Some of the “mistakes” may add to the charm.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 09:43:31 AM »
This is interesting. When does 'honouring' the greats go too far? when is it too respectful?  [I know architects probably know the answer, on a case by case basis].

The story goes that, when he was in California and really struggling with drug addiction and mental health issues, and also very drunk, Charlie Parker recorded a version of "Lover Man" that he could barely get through, and that he subsequently hated and begged the producer not to release. But the record company released it anyway -- and so great was the respect other musicians had for him, and so iconic was the recording, that for years afterwards young alto players copied/played sections of it note for note...including the *mistakes*! 

The golden age greats did make mistakes sometimes, no? or at least were not always at their best?


Well, if the architect himself hated a feature or hated the course, and we know that, then I wouldn't recommend keeping it for the sake of historical accuracy.


But someone else deciding afterward what pieces of the work were "mistakes" is a lot different than that.


Nobody's perfect, but that includes the guy who would "fix" the mistakes.  He might well make the course worse!  The only thing you know for certain is that putting another set of hands on the work increases the odds that it won't all fit seamlessly together.


Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 10:06:06 AM »
I have not seen The Old Course in 15 years, but that course seemed to honor the original design.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2019, 10:09:15 AM »
Understood, Tom, as I understood (and appreciate) Ian's goal at Highlands too.
But reading related threads over the last couple of weeks, I started to think that Jeff B (and others) are right in at least this sense: that the art & craft of gca has improved over the decades, i.e. practitioners have learned from the past, both in 'technical' and 'creative' ways -- and certainly have learned what seems to work best (and what didn't sometimes work) in golden age designs.
Now, neither you nor Ian would probably even think this, let alone say it: but isn't it very possible that you both "know better" than those who came before, even if those who came before where the golden age greats?
Yes: I can fully appreciated wanting to/aiming to bring back a great classic design to its 'truest' form. But isn't another defensible goal that of trying to make that design 'better'?
P

 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 10:18:56 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 10:44:23 AM »


 the art & craft of gca has improved over the decades, i.e. practitioners have learned from the past, both in 'technical' and 'creative' ways -- and certainly have learned what seems to work best (and what didn't sometimes work) in golden age designs.

Now, neither you nor Ian would probably even think this, let alone say it: but isn't it very possible that you both "know better" than those who came before, even if those who came before where the golden age greats?
 
Yes: I can fully appreciated wanting to/aiming to bring back a great classic design to its 'truest' form. But isn't another defensible goal that of trying to make that design 'better'?
P


Peter:


I understand your argument.  It's a bit different, but not unlike the argument that athletes keep getting fitter over time, so that today's bench players might have beaten the all stars of Babe Ruth's day.


The people most likely to agree with that analysis are the bench players.  But the people least likely to agree with it are today's best players, who recognize that there is something more than physical skill at play.  There's also just natural aptitude for the sport, and the desire that drives some to put in more effort to be the best at what they do.


Statisticians argue that the results of a baseball player's at bats are random and there is no such thing as clutch hitting, but as Reggie Jackson pointed out, nobody said that about Jack Nicklaus.




So, back to your argument.  There is a group of golf course architects [really almost a generation of them] who think the profession is all about technical proficiency and getting the drainage right -- that it's mostly engineering rather than art.  Are those the guys you really want to have tinkering around with the best work of past designers who had a different view of things?


Again, as with my earlier analogy, the more accomplished an architect in modern times, generally, the more respect is shown to the great courses of the past.  Of course they are also the ones who don't need to feed their family by renovating a golf course next year, or to attach their name to a great course to boost their self-promotion; and maybe it's as simple as that, but I don't think so.  I think there are just a lot of guys who don't put much value in the magic of a great design, because they don't know anything about magic.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2019, 10:52:34 AM »
The Meadow Club, Marin County, CA.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What are the best examples of honoring the original design?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2019, 06:04:38 PM »
T -
Magic is a terrific word.
Maybe the best way to honour the golden age intent is to recapture the magic of the original course.
I'm still not quite sure how you'd approach a classic course that (truth be told) wasn't all the magical to begin with.
P

« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 06:16:42 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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