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MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #175 on: December 31, 2019, 01:17:39 PM »
Joe Hancock/Mike CThe work at Sunningdale is fantastic.  I love Maxwell rolls and the work at Sunningdale is reminiscent of those.  Perhaps my favorite set of "modern" greens because they seem to "fit" the property so well.  They make the course.My two quibbles ( I only quibble with the "artist" on aesthetics) are the cart path between #14 green and #15 tee...I want to see an all world green-tee-green melding.AndI love the mounding/speed slot that was built on the left side of the #6 fairway.  Show it off...Eliminate any trees near it that are visible from the tee and especially the few that are in the background.  With the hump I want to see through to #7 tee 400 yards away.  I believe you built this? Show the darn thing off!!!!I only mention my two "points" to you because I am steadfast that this is some of the best restoration work I have seen.  Kudos to you and Mike D. and Mike M

Corey,

Agree with your assessment and additional recommendations.   I definitely should have mentioned the wonderful greens.

Would you score Sunningdale higher than 6?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #176 on: December 31, 2019, 01:32:53 PM »
David Harshbarger,

You may want to check about the status of Dorset as I believe they are going to begin some significant work there in the near term.

My biggest problem with the new holes was that they were so obviously manufactured (i.e. overshaped) as to be distracting.   I really just could not see the need to go to that extent on land that seemed fit for the purpose in the first place.   

Thanks for following along...enjoying your comments.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

corey miller

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2019, 01:35:47 PM »



I would have Sunningdale a 7.  I think I am on the higher end because of the "neighborhood" and my preference for a round there over  a few other of the Metro area greats. 




I also think "liking greens" can be rather subjective, there are more than a few modern sets that I admire but don't necessarily fit my preference.  The work at Sunningdale fits right in my wheelhouse stylistically. 

David Harshbarger

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2019, 01:45:03 PM »
Palmer House Resort Golf Course - Manchester, VT

Wendall Cram/Hans Palmer 1982
I'm confident only two people in the whole wide-world have played Palmer House and Ekwanok on the same day.   ;)

More photos of Palmer House (thanks to Matt Frey for creating the scorecard; BTW, I want to meet the fellow that holds the course record of 25 at PH, as I don't think either of us broke 40!):

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PalmerHouse/index.html

Those greens look like they are conducive to neither the ground game nor the air game.

I love the fact that the green-tee transitions are mowed to fairway length.  That's always a nice touch. 

While a number of snarky comments came to mind ("do you think the addition of amenities such as the pool behind the 2nd green impacted the architect's original intent?" "How would compare the use of crowned greens at Palmer House as a means to protect par to their use at other courses, for example, Pinehurst #2?"), a more humble view is that this is a "custodian of the game" if maybe not a candidate for inclusion at no. 149.  (In fact, given how intimately the course is routed to the resort, and its resulting scale, there may actually be a custodian maintaining this game.)
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

David Harshbarger

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2019, 01:54:08 PM »
David Harshbarger,

You may want to check about the status of Dorset as I believe they are going to begin some significant work there in the near term.

My biggest problem with the new holes was that they were so obviously manufactured (i.e. overshaped) as to be distracting.   I really just could not see the need to go to that extent on land that seemed fit for the purpose in the first place.   

Thanks for following along...enjoying your comments.


Ah, so the new holes are running over manufactured ground.  I see your point.  There's plenty of movement already.


I'll keep my ear to ground re: the Dorset changes/status.  There are a number of folks at my club (in the adjacent county across the NY-line) that play the VT courses, so there's a chance someone knows.


There's an extra hole back past the 13th tee.  Was that a practice area?
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Joe Hancock

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2019, 02:32:12 PM »
Peter/ Corey/ Mike,


Thanks for feedback so far.


I’ve been on that property at Sunningdale, on and off, for over 12 years. As much work as we did, I wouldn’t expect all of it to be welcomed as “the best” of anything. I do think some of it is very, very good, and I think there are some near-misses that we came close on. All in all, it will always be a special place to me, but I know it still can’t be “perfect”, and that’s OK.


I often tell people about Sunningdale, and can’t understand why it isn’t on everyones radar; that’s a function of my love of the place and the people as much as it is of my opinion of its qualities. The thing I always list as the golf courses’ most compelling attribute is something we had little to do with....the routing. I love hearing Corey admire the “Maxwellian Rolls” that are a natural tendency of Mikes green designs, and I’m proud of the artistry of the bunkers/ grass lines/ views/ tees. But the way the course was routed over the ridges and through the valleys in a twisting, diagonal kind of way is just the type of thing that shows how good that land is. There are so many drives there that get your attention while standing on the tee, gauging the land and picking a line based on landforms rather than the usual “try to hit it in the fairway” mentality.


Anyway, I enjoy how Peter can cut through the details and get to the points that he does. While Mike C. may be biased before he arrives because he is a smart historian, I am as likely to give a biased opinion because of sweat, pride and valued relationships at any given project I’m lucky enough to be a part of. I’m good with all that, and Mike giving that bit of background as to how he thinks/ opines is an important nugget for me to hold on to.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #181 on: January 07, 2020, 01:30:55 PM »

There's an extra hole back past the 13th tee.  Was that a practice area?


David,


I believe that's a short game practice area, thanks.


All,


I got a bit slammed with a new work project over the holidays but hope to pick up and finish this thread in the next few weeks, thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #182 on: January 07, 2020, 02:51:37 PM »
Update to my "Coming Next" post.

I somehow neglected to review "Blue Shamrock Golf Course" in eastern PA that Joe Bausch and I walked on a 95 degree, humid day in the spring. 


That also bumps my total rounds and 18 hole courses played this year up 1, so I went back and updated that post on the prior page.


Given that hot experience and the timing, Blue Shamrock will have to precede Pine Valley, Sewanee, Black Creek, Sweetens Cove, and Lookout Mountain and I'm sure that will help build the overall anticipation and excitement.   
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 02:55:11 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #183 on: January 10, 2020, 10:38:28 AM »
Blue Shamrock Golf Club - Palmerton, PA

John Stuart McKaig 1915, Jim Andrews/Peter Wentz 1990

Doak Scale Score - 2.5

Playing widths are a problem with the newest nine holes at Blue Shamrock as seen on this approach to the long par four 12th.

Built originally for/by the management of the New Jersey Zinc Company mining operation in 1915, Blue Shamrock existed as a private club (called Blue Ridge Country Club) until recently when financial pressures led to a sale and re-opening and re-naming.   For years the club had only nine holes which offered a very playable, modest if unexciting course for the membership of the blue collar town.

During the 1980s some members began to push for a long discussed acquisition of additional land and two members designed nine holes that were built with quite a bit of inhouse labor over a few years.   What's in play today is an eighteen hole course, with holes of both the old and new nines interspersed within both nines.

The biggest problem is mostly found on the front nine as 7 of the 9 holes are the newer ones, squeezed in a narrow peninsula of land between woods and separated by wetlands and despite best efforts the effective playing widths of the holes is constricting, and most balls leaving the fairways are quickly lost.   Such penal difficulty contrasts vividly with the older holes, built on uplands that include wide corridors and generally fun playability.   It also appears that the inhouse membership only knew how to build one style of green, which is basically a raised plateau with most of the surface largely blind to the approach.  This one-dimensional construction again contrasts rather abruptly against the more lay-of-the-land greens on the older nine.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 10:43:05 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #184 on: January 10, 2020, 11:05:58 AM »
Pine Valley Golf Club - Clementon, NJ

George Crump/Harry Colt 1914-18, Hugh Wilson/Charles Alison 1921, William Flynn 1929, Perry Maxwell 1933, Tom Fazio 1989,2001,2018

Doak Scale Score - 10


The majestic sweep of Pine Valley evident from the perched 18th tee is simultaneously inviting and terrifying.

Pine Valley is the best course in the United States and probably the world based on the simple fact that most everyone agrees there are 17 great holes and 1 very good one, although not everyone agrees on which of the 18 is only "very good" and no other course can claim such a distinction.

Over recent decades, however, unchecked tree growth has led to a narrowing of playing corridors such that any number of George Crump's bunkers were lost in the trees, and beautiful, inspiring views were blocked off, particularly on holes such as 2, 5, 9, 12, 14, and 15.  Further, the club lost some of the primal, rugged maintenance of the bunkering and some of the random look of the vegetation was lost to make room for the Sandpro.

The good news is that the club has made a concerted effort to reclaim some of those playing widths and even went so far as to clear almost the entire left side of holes number 5, and number 12.   While it's quibbling with stylistics and construction techniques, my impression is that those efforts did not yield the best possible outcome.   Particularly on hole 12, where one used to be able to walk into the woods and see random patterns of bunkers with trees growing out of them it always seemed to me that all that was needed was tree clearing, root removal, and bunker reconstruction.   Instead, what's taken place seems like a construction job with backhoes unlike anything that existed at Pine Valley prior, and those newly excavated bunkers stand in stark contrast to everything else on the course.   


The good news is that a bold (re: crazy) player can attempt to drive the green again.   The bad news is that he has to carry a new minefield of excavation that sticks out like a sore thumb.

All of this is nitpicking, of course.   On this visit I got to see Pine Valley again through the fresh eyes of two first-timers, and as we progressed through the round you'd have thought they had made it through the gates of Heaven.   In many ways, we may have.
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 11:08:57 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2020, 11:41:19 AM »
Blue Shamrock Golf Club - Palmerton, PA

John Stuart McKaig 1915, Jim Andrews/Peter Wentz 1990
More photos of Blue Shamrock from that steamy afternoon:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/BlueShamrock/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

David Harshbarger

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #186 on: January 10, 2020, 01:17:26 PM »
Blue Shamrock Golf Club - Palmerton, PA

John Stuart McKaig 1915, Jim Andrews/Peter Wentz 1990

Doak Scale Score - 2.5

Playing widths are a problem with the newest nine holes at Blue Shamrock as seen on this approach to the long par four 12th.



Not generally one to dunk on a course, but, this seems like a stretch at a 2.5.  The triangular granite obstacle on 4 seems like a brutal randomizer, set a tad oblique to the line of play with a relatively uniform 45 degree pitch towards the woods.



Yes, most would play over it, but those that do hit to that point don't really need the kick, do they?


 The trees encroach on the 8th par-3 so much they block the line to the bunker. 


14 holes have a bunker short/right of the green, the better to penalize the high-handicapper!


If half of all courses are 1's and 2's, this seems like a leap to get out of that pack. 


Maybe I'm just overly annoyed that I wasn't able to figure out how the course was routed from the satellite view, even with the hint on which hole was 12. Looks like the clubhouse used to be by the road and now 18 was the par-3 finishing 9. 


Anyway, always something to ponder on any course.  Thanks for posting.

The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #187 on: January 10, 2020, 09:27:24 PM »
Davis Harshbarger,


The pretty good stuff at Blue Shamrock sort of balances the awful stuff and it helps that most of the older holes are on the back nine so you leave the course feeling fairly positive overall.


Overall in the world of golf there is a lot of really bad architecture and maintenance out there so I had to debate whether Blue Shamrock was a 2.5 or 3 and ended up with the lower number simply because I wouldn't want to have anybody drive there on my advice.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Pallotta

Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #188 on: January 10, 2020, 09:45:51 PM »
My continued thanks, Mike.
PV seems to me the only course I've ever read about to which the phrase "they don't build them like that anymore" could truthfully/meaningfully be applied. I can't think of another course past or present where the relative degree of difficulty between the tee shots and the approach shots is so significant; the former seem comparatively benign, while the latter seem truly frightening.
Luckily you have that new fancy shamnzy set of irons you got a couple of years ago  :) 

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #189 on: January 12, 2020, 03:28:40 PM »
The Course at Sewanee - Sewanee, TN

Albion Knight 1915, Gil Hanse/Jim Wagner 2013

Doak Scale Score - 6


A principal's nose bunker complex occupies what would normally be Position A on the par four 8th hole at Sewanee

While a good routing may be the most critical thing to get right for an architect, Sewanee makes the case that the fine details of the golf hole "innards" are likely just as important.

Originally built for the "University of the South" by the school's vice-chancellor Reverend Albion Knight in 1915, Knight inherited a wonderful rolling piece of property on a mountaintop with views to forever and although that bit of providence may have been fortuitous, by all accounts the golf course he built on it lacked much in terms of savoir vivre and architectural sophistication.

Still, Knight laid the holes out in a manner that visited the most impressive parts of the property in a clever manner so for an amateur effort it was quite good enough for his time.   The course featured several ravine crossings and greensites set on hilltops at the edge of the world.   So when Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner were asked to come and renovate the golf course in 2011 there was quite a bit of raw material to work with.

Hanse & Wagner basically kept the same routing and just created all new internals, including a new irrigation system.   Borrowing liberally from holes abroad, the course starts with a wonderful Alps hole that can be played as either a par five or backbreaking par four depending on the tees in use (the course features different tees for each nine).  The 9th green is a Road Hole green, and the par three third has redanish characteristics, while the 7th green features a valley of sin.

There are plenty of opportunities for scoring and risk taking, but I did feel that the 5th and 6th holes were both perhaps too severely difficult.   The 5th is a steeply uphill 218 yard par three over a lake and cliffside chasm and it really is a long forced carry even from the shortest set of tees at 156 yards.   The 437 yard sixth features a hogback fairway falling into some severe trouble on both sides and makes for a very perplexing target.   

Ultimately thought, Hanse and Wagner did not undo God's work started by Reverend Knight; they merely enhanced it (ok, even I groaned typing that). 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #190 on: January 12, 2020, 04:04:19 PM »
Black Creek Club - Chattanooga, TN

Brian Silva 2000

Doak Scale Score - 6.5


The reverse redan 7th at over 200 yards is one of two redan holes at Black Creek.

Architect Brian Silva was given carte blanche at Black Creek to create a paean to the Macdonald/Raynor style of architecture and he went big and bold.   Thankfully, the property has so many wonderful natural features in a spacious setting (regrettably with a real estate component that is mostly non-obtrusive) that those man-made features don't feel incongruous.

For the most part, it's all laid out in front of you in black and white with very obvious playing strategies.   Most all of the CBM playbook is on full display from Shorts to Punchbowls, from a Biarritz to a Cape.   

But most of the best holes are those more originally creative that use the natural features of the property.   The 10th is a marvelous short par four where playing away from an impressive fairway bunker on the right side leaves a treacherously bad approach angle over the deepest bunker on the course to a green perched on a knoll high above, or the 12th where a drive hugging the dry creek running the length of the hole on the right side leaves the only advantageous angle to confidently cross the same gulch passing in front of the green.

The back nine is special, traversing into rolling foothills terrain with the mountains of Chattanooga as gorgeous backdrop.   Given the setting, such bold holes as the Biarritz 17th with a four-foot deep swale somehow fit right in.

I've heard some criticism that both the long par four 9th and the short par five 18th end with full carries over the namesake Black Creek and indeed either can quickly ruin a round with careless thinking or poor execution.   I'm in the opposite camp; making the carry and watching your ball nestle on the green on either hole is an immensely satisfying way to end a nine.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 04:08:02 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #191 on: January 12, 2020, 04:10:26 PM »
The Course at Sewanee - Sewanee, TN

Albion Knight 1915, Gil Hanse/Jim Wagner 2013

Doak Scale Score - 6


A principal's nose bunker complex occupies what would normally be Position A on the par four 8th hole at Sewanee

While a good routing may be the most critical thing to get right for an architect, Sewanee makes the case that the fine details of the golf hole "innards" are likely just as important.

Originally built for the "University of the South" by the school's vice-chancellor Reverend Albion Knight in 1915, Knight inherited a wonderful rolling piece of property on a mountaintop with views to forever and although that bit of providence may have been fortuitous, by all accounts the golf course he built on it lacked much in terms of savoir vivre and architectural sophistication.

Still, Knight laid the holes out in a manner that visited the most impressive parts of the property in a clever manner so for an amateur effort it was quite good enough for his time.   The course featured several ravine crossings and greensites set on hilltops at the edge of the world.   So when Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner were asked to come and renovate the golf course in 2011 there was quite a bit of raw material to work with.

Hanse & Wagner basically kept the same routing and just created all new internals, including a new irrigation system.   Borrowing liberally from holes abroad, the course starts with a wonderful Alps hole that can be played as either a par five or backbreaking par four depending on the tees in use (the course features different tees for each nine).  The 9th green is a Road Hole green, and the par three third has redanish characteristics, while the 7th green features a valley of sin.

There are plenty of opportunities for scoring and risk taking, but I did feel that the 5th and 6th holes were both perhaps too severely difficult.   The 5th is a steeply uphill 218 yard par three over a lake and cliffside chasm and it really is a long forced carry even from the shortest set of tees at 156 yards.   The 437 yard sixth features a hogback fairway falling into some severe trouble on both sides and makes for a very perplexing target.   

Ultimately thought, Hanse and Wagner did not undo God's work started by Reverend Knight; they merely enhanced it (ok, even I groaned typing that).


Great review, but I think it’s a “Bishop’s Nose” complex!

jeffwarne

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #192 on: January 13, 2020, 12:33:19 AM »
Muirfield Village Golf Club - Dublin, OH

Jack Nicklaus/Desmond Muirhead 1974, Jack Nicklaus 2000-2018 and beyond

Doak Scale Rating - 6.5


I can't imagine many people walking off the 18th green excited to run back out to the 1st tee for another go-round.

The first thing that comes to mind about Muirfield Village is that it's a course built to suit a purpose, and that is to play host to Jack's annual tournament featuring the best players in the world.  Nicklaus always revered Bobby Jones, and admired the legacy Jones originally built with Mackenzie at Augusta with holes that attempted to copy classic features Bobby loved at St. Andrews, and Jack was inspired to do similarly back in his hometown of Columbus.   

Jack also learned to love the links courses of the British Isles, and decided to name his club after the club where he won the 1966 British Open, as well as an earlier Walker Cup.   Muirfield Village opened in 1974 to considerable acclaim and has since hosted a slew of significant tournaments and I had to keep reminding myself of that fact as I progressed through the round.

In fact, it is nearly impossible to objectively divorce Muirfield Village from its tournament history and reputation as "Jack's Place", yet if one is to fairly rate its status simply as a golf course one must try.  From a tournament perspective for the very top echelon of the game, it seems to work and everyone seemingly agrees.   

As a course for the rest of us trying to navigate the golf holes, it requires/demands any number of golf shots well above the capabilities of most mortals.   For a high-handicapper, it's a train wreck waiting to happen. The vast majority of holes introduce water as a hazard, normally on the approach shot with some aqua right up against fully nine greens.   The greens themselves usually present as small, diagonal, shallow or narrow targets requiring utmost in precision.  The course slope rating from the white tees is a measly 147, for crying out loud!

Although the routing is solid, I also found it perplexing that the course Nicklaus chose for his memorial is essentially a real estate development.  Thankfully, the houses are well set back, often on hillsides above the holes, but one wonders what could have been if that element hadn't been a primary focus and limiting element of the routing.  What any of this has to do with an homage to anything in the Home of Golf is beyond me.   

Over the years, the course has been tinkered with by Nicklaus almost continually, which unfortunately has led to the creation of gawdawful penal holes like the 16th, which seems to be an attempt to emulate 16 at ANGC but gets none of the angles right.   

Muirfield Village is the poster child illustrating that the pursuit of trying to challenge top professionals a week each year eventually makes the course irrelevant for the rest of us.   The fact that the course is closing for yet another round of significant changes confirms my instincts.


I played MV three times this last May, just before the tournament.I really  liked two of the par 5's-5 and 11,  and 3,13 and 14 amongst the par 4's  as well 4 and 8 amongst the par 3's. I wanted to like the copy of 12 at ANGC from years of watching on TV but couldn't quite.
The monocromaticness of the place just didn't appeal, yet it works for me at ANGC :) (non objective I know but ANGC does have the pines. pinestraw and has the remnants of a former nursery showcased at peak season as the world comes out of winter)
In your picture it's difficult to tell which architecture is more offensive-the strip mall in the background or the course shaping and bunkers. 18 is indeed an awkward hole, perhaps only exceeded by the awkwardness of the hole preceeding it.
It is a wonderfully run facility with a fantastic staff, and impeccably groomed, and Mr. Nicklaus has the desire and means to keep it relevant for ever-expanding tournament golf-which in itself virtually disqualifies it for charm appeal.



The rest of your review I am mostly in agreement with.
The most positive word in your review was "solid" amidst a sea of negatives.
Plenty of "frank commentary"-why the 6.5? (which is a pretty high score)


That was one of my quibbles with the 1994 and 96 versions of the CG.
Big, often vapid modern courses by modern signatures were given "6" while many charming -compelling to play-classics with "nonchamponship" modern yardages but classic, memorable architecture here and overseas were given 5's,4's and evn 3's.
can't help but think some of the modern course scores in the CG were a concession to Alice Dye asking Tom to play nice to others after reading the original.


This is the thread of the year so far, fortunately no one has mentioned the world handicaps...
Great work Mike
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 10:45:30 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #193 on: January 13, 2020, 11:56:32 AM »
Chris Blakely,

Thanks...I stand corrected and make way for Bishop Reverend Albion Knight's probiscus!

jeffwarne,

I hear you completely and generally agree.   I also generally note that I haven't been criticized too sharply when I mark a course down but woe unto me when I elevate a "Rich Maiden" to a 4 or Manasquan River to 8.  ;)

I would say that because the Doak Scale is used to refer others whether a golf course is an interesting or enjoyable or architecturally noteworthy course that it is difficult not to be swayed somewhat by groupthink.   Most observers rate a course like Muirfield Village as one of the top 10-20 courses built over the past half century and thus would probably give it an 8 or 9.   I think my 6.5 gets the message across without coming at it as too much of a biased, one-off opinion, and in those cases when I present what I think is an outlier score I try to defend that in the commentary.

Glad you're enjoying, thanks!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 09:21:44 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #194 on: January 13, 2020, 12:12:41 PM »
Sweetens Cove Golf Club - South Pittsburg, TN

Bob Thomas 1951, Rob Collins/Tad King 2014

Doak Scale Score - 7.5


At Sweetens Cove it's not "two girls for every boy" as in the old Jan & Dean song, but instead "two holes on every green" on this golfing playground for the senses.

As someone who strongly believes golf should be fun, adventurous, unfair, captivating, affordable, self-revealing, and tempting, Sweetens Cover checks all my personal boxes. Rob Collins and Tad King have essentially taken a flat sandbox and somehow created both a Cinderella story and magical playground for adults.

Taking what Collins described as "the worst golf course he'd ever seen", a tired family built (1951) nine hole course with a total one foot of elevation change across the property and the other foot in the graveyard, the team used the basic routing of the original course and created golf's version of Disneyland.   

Each of the holes offers amazing flexibility and variety based on tees used and hole locations (there are two holes on each green to be played for an eighteen hole round) and it's so much fun it would be difficult to imagine it ever growing tiresome. There are minor quibbles, such as the tall tree right in front of the par five third green that requires some thoughtful placement of the second, or the hood of an automobile turtle-back green on the 7th that can seem impossible, but those are missing the point.  Here, it's the game as it was conceived where you suffer the bad breaks and the crazy bounces and the impossibly twisting rolls and just find your ball and try to figure out how to get it  in the hole.  It's a match-play dream course. 

You think that's unfair?   Tear up your damn scorecard.

The clubhouse is essentially a shack and is even smaller than the little one where I first played golf.  In another throwback to the game's origins local custom has customers doing a complimentary shot of Tennessee bourbon poured into paper cups on the porch-rail of the shack.  That's about it as far as service and amenities, thank God.    As Collins says, "golf is enough".
 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 09:23:00 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #195 on: January 13, 2020, 12:50:40 PM »
Lookout Mountain Club - Lookout Mountain, GA

Seth Raynor/Charles Banks 1925, Brian Silva 1998

Doak Scale Score - 6


At Lookout Mountain, it's the templates with a twist (and glorious views) as in this "Short" sixth from a rocky-top tee with death lurking closely to the right.

In theory, Lookout Mountain should be a knockout.   A recently restored Seth Raynor designed/Charles Banks constructed course at the height of both men's powers on a high promontory in northern Georgia with views for what seem to be thousands of miles. But alas, nothing is so easy.

The course is built on very hilly, nay, mountainous terrain that can be overwhelming and even disorienting to one's equilibrium as every stance is unbalanced.  This can lead to some intense severity as the shot requirements coming into the greens are quite exacting. At that elevation, bedrock is just below the surface which made excavation a significant challenge.  Thus, many of the bunkers planned by Raynor were never originally built and many remain that way in the Brian Silva "restoration" the club performed in the 1990s.

There are few more lovely places to play the game and for how hilly the course is it is still quite walkable given the intimacy and thoughtful routing.   The course plays along a long, broad slope from north falling south, but there is more than enough dips and valleys throughout as to disguise the overall landform and create internal interest on virtually every single hole.   

As I thought about it, perhaps this was a course where Raynor should have let the land dictate more of the challenge than being slavish to incorporating templates.  Indeed, two of the best holes on the course are the only two par fives, 10 & 14 and they remind me of nothing I've seen before from Raynor.   The long par four 7th is another terrific hole that just utilizes the existing natural features brilliantly. 

Each of the "template" holes falls just short of perfect execution.   The Biarritz is lacking a maintained front section (precisely as Raynor evidently drew) but his ambitious bunkering couldn't be realized probably due to subsurface rock and ongoing maintainability.   The redan looks wonderful but the green does not have sufficient right to left fall for the proper playability at the angle it's played as the tee was moved left at some time to accommodate a parking roundabout.   The short is attractive played from a stone structure, but does not offer the width and variability of green-size that is optimum.  The Eden is significantly, almost steeply uphill with a green featuring almost certain three-putt (more likely off the green) as the penalty for anything beyond the hole location, which is particularly daunting given the required trajectory of the approach for the average golfer.    The Road Hole has opportunity for improvement as it seems about half the green fill pad has never been recovered as green-space, making the placement of the key "road hole" greenside bunker almost superfluous.   I do have to concede that the Alps is quite inspiring and as one comes over the  top of the hill looking out for hundreds of miles it's a goosebump moment.

The greens are, in a word, bewildering.   Given their maintained speeds, firmness, and throw in ever-present wind, bermuda grain, the "mountain effect", and their slope and contouring, I don't know any course where local knowledge isn't more at a premium.  I can't think of another course where one is made to look almost pathetically silly given the putting variables. 

Still, Lookout Mountain remains a lovely place to play in a unique setting that just exposes any weakness in anyone's game and does it with seeming glee.
 
(Note - I purposefully did not read the recent GCA thread started by Mark Chalfant on Lookout Mountain as I didn't want my impressions colored by other judgements.   I will read it now.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 12:58:59 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #196 on: January 13, 2020, 01:03:31 PM »
Next, the final 10 courses of 2019:


Skyline (PA)
Paramus (NJ)
Orchard Hills (NJ)
Galen Hall (PA)
Brigantine (NJ)
Myrtlewood (SC)
Landfall (Dye) (NC)
Cape Fear National (NC)
Wilmington Muni (NC)
Cape Fear (NC)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #197 on: January 14, 2020, 07:53:53 AM »
Just read Mark Chalfant's Lookout Mountain thread, now on page 2.


Good to see others were as bewildered by LM's greens as I was.  Now I don't feel so badly.   :D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mike_malone

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #198 on: January 14, 2020, 10:06:54 AM »
I couldn’t tell when you moved from Blue Shamrock to Pine Valley with the trees encroaching on both.
AKA Mayday

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #199 on: January 14, 2020, 10:13:44 AM »
I couldn’t tell when you moved from Blue Shamrock to Pine Valley with the trees encroaching on both.


Now that is funny, Mayday!


I love George Crump and his creation but think the "splendid isolation" he ostensibly sought has been vastly oversold.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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