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David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2019, 08:34:38 PM »
Rip Van Winkle Country Club - Palenville, NY

Donald Ross 1920

Doak Scale Rating - 3.5


The lovely valley setting adds to the overall appeal of this low-key nine hole Donald Ross course.

Set in a serene valley in the Catskill Mountains, the aptly named Rip Van Winkle course is a little sleeper.   The modest clubhouse and gravel parking lot fits the scene perfectly and it's a place to just sling your clubs over your shoulder and go for a nice walk.

The terrain of the course is mostly flat, and the interest lies in some of the smallest Donald Ross greens I've seen (yes, they have lost greenspace but even so they were never large to begin with based on the pads) that require accurate approaching.   Most peculiar as a hazard is a large grassy mound popping up in the fairway on the short par four 2nd hole, but it provides a vintage novel appeal nonetheless.


This course is *exactly* why you keep your clubs in the trunk of your car.  A short modest detour off the NYS Thruway, coming or going, well worth turning into the driveway for.  And, as it's a favorite of Jim Kennedy, too, you know it's worth a stop. 
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Joe Bausch

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #151 on: December 28, 2019, 09:00:47 PM »

I was looking forward to your report on this, as I have never heard one before.


Glad to hear you are so enthusiastic.  However, you may need a refresher course on the upper reaches of The Doak Scale.  Seeing a lot of 2's and 3's could do that to a guy.

Tom,

I was looking forward to your response to my report, as I knew it would raise eyebrows.    ;D 

Let's see...

8 - One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

Yeah, I'll stand by that.  It's really, really good.  It's in my top 5 in the state of NJ...scratch that...top 3.


Mike speaks the truth!  MR is so good and a true hidden gem if such a thing exists these days.


More photos of this gem here:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/ManasquanRiver/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #152 on: December 28, 2019, 09:28:27 PM »
Rip Van Winkle Country Club - Palenville, NY

Donald Ross 1920

Doak Scale Rating - 3.5
More photos of a course that had me wide awake:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RipVanWinkle/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2019, 01:43:25 AM »

Manasquan at 8.0,     top 3 in New Jersey


WHOA  DADDY  !!!

Plusses:
Wonderful terrain from #2 through #11  several nice putting surfaces
Nice balance of fun and challenge;     varied lies
Wind complicates distance control
Two, Seven and Sixteen are great holes

Minuses:
Numerous parallel holes
One and 18 are not compelling short par fours in any sense
Only three one shotters
Flipping the nines would allow the course to build in interest.


I earlier rated it 6.0 but now with Andrew Green's excellent work 6.4 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 02:15:42 AM by mark chalfant »

Peter Sayegh

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2019, 04:06:29 AM »

Manasquan at 8.0,     top 3 in New Jersey


WHOA  DADDY  !!!

Plusses:
Wonderful terrain from #2 through #11  several nice putting surfaces
Nice balance of fun and challenge;     varied lies
Wind complicates distance control
Two, Seven and Sixteen are great holes

Minuses:
Numerous parallel holes
One and 18 are not compelling short par fours in any sense
Only three one shotters
Flipping the nines would allow the course to build in interest.


I earlier rated it 6.0 but now with Andrew Green's excellent work 6.4 

Having grown up next door to MRGC, it's the course I know most intimately. I agree wholeheartedly with Mark's "minuses." Before the redesign of 16, the river side holes lacked any real interest save 15 which used to have a rougher (and tighter, long and right) character. 18 is what it is-a short, straightforward par four that has been tinkered with over the years. The preferred angle from the right side is much more undulating than the boundary along the left.
I don't believe there is a single green on the river side (12-17) that is the equal of any on the "hill" side.I too have always wished the nines were reversed.Maybe paradoxically, I never found the wind as impactful on the much more open river side as on the hillier front portion.
P.S. #2 may be the single greatest sledding hole on the east coast. Starting near the green, one had to manage the fairway slope in order to propel your yankee flyer through the trees and onto Rankin Pond.

JMEvensky

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2019, 05:41:04 AM »

More photos of a course that had me wide awake:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RipVanWinkle/index.html





Didn't want this to go unnoticed. Hope all is well JB.

MCirba

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2019, 07:33:00 AM »
Good to see some frank discussion and debate.


I'll wait for a few others to weigh in before responding. 


By the way, my top 3 in NJ are now PV, SH, and MR.  The latter bumped Plainfield and I'll be happy to share my reasoning.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #157 on: December 29, 2019, 10:45:40 AM »

Thanks for your post Mike,


For me Manasquan River is not comparable to any of these stellar New Jersey golf courses

Somerset Hills  8.0
Hollywood  7.0
Hidden Creek  7.0
Ridgewood   6.8
Forsgate
Baltusrol Upper
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:19:16 PM by mark chalfant »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #158 on: December 30, 2019, 12:33:43 PM »
Mark Chalfant,


Thanks for the feedback.  More to come tomorrow but what score would you give Forsgate (Banks)?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2019, 01:30:30 PM »
Manasquan River Golf Club - Brielle, NJ

Robert White 1923,1926, Ron Prichard 2012, Andrew Green 2018

Doak Scale Score - 8

Mike:I was keen to see your rating on Manasquan River.  Even though I have not played here in many years, I had written a post on one of Tom Doaks threads a few years ago that I thought this was the single most under-rated course in NJ for many reasons. Your score would support that contention.  Gotta get back there soon.     Thanks, again for the effort of posting all these interesting comments.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 01:19:17 PM by Bill Crane »
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #160 on: December 31, 2019, 10:06:09 AM »
Just to update my first post, my year end totals are as follows; 

58 total rounds
49 18-hole rounds
8 9-hole rounds

42 18-hole courses
8 9-hole courses

29 Courses Played for the First Time
21 Course Replays, with a few multiple times

1,130 Total Courses Played thru 2019
96 (at last count) No Longer Exist
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 03:39:50 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2019, 10:28:40 AM »
Bill Crane,

Yes, I recall you mentioning Manasquan River a few years back as well as Ron Prichard, which piqued my interest.   But it was way back in 1982 when I received the coffee table book "100 Greatest Courses and Then Some" by William H. Davis and the editors of Golf Digest.   

In that book was a section towards the end titled the "Frank Cox Gazetteer" which chronicled some of the golf course musings of a fellow who traveled the world playing courses and under the heading of "Little Known Gems In the United States" was the following;

Manasquan River Golf Club, Brielle, NJ - One of the most scenic courses on the Eastern seaboard.   From its high hills there are sweeping panoramas of both the Atlantic Ocean and the inland waterways with their heavy shipping parades, and some unusual golf holes....

Mark Chalfant,

I'll stand by my assessment and seem to recall Tom Doak at one point saying that if we're a point or so different (me at 8 and you at 6.4) then we're probably going to have a good discussion and maybe objective reality is somewhere in the middle.   I'd include a few others in the great hole discussion, most notably all the 3 par threes (3, 6, and 15), and throw in numbers 9 and 10 as well.   Hope we can discuss in person in the coming year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:54:19 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2019, 10:47:32 AM »
Dorset Field Club - Dorset, VT

Arvin Harrington/Fred Holley/Bill Kent 1886, Arvin Harrington 1896, Steve Durkee 1999

Doak Scale Score - 4


The oldest nine holes on the property are draped elegantly on the land as seen here with the parallel par three 2nd hole (looking back towards the tee) and par three 8th hole (green behind bunker) to a ridgetop green set perilously close to the quaint little town.

Dorset Field Club claims to be the oldest golf course continually played in the United States, dating back to 1886.   I had hoped to find proof of that but it's largely based on one anecdotal account and then the original got lost during copying and the story gets a little complicated.  What we do know for certain is that there had to be enough golf activity and membership for a new clubhouse to be built specifically for the purpose by 1896, so it's a very old golf course in any case.

The original nine holes were all what I'd hoped to find.   Quaint, no little earthmoving, draped on the lovely rolling land in unusual and interesting ways that perhaps no one would dare design today and while some may quibble the greens may be too small or too tilted I found them delightful.

The problem is that the club at some point round the turn of 20th century decided they needed a real 18 hole golf course and built a new nine holes.   I'm not sure why because the land seemed lovely without much effort but those holes required tons of earth-moving to shape into place and seemingly without adding much merit to the holes themselves.   It would probably not matter so much if you could still play the original nine but the new holes are interspersed with each nine such that they are jarringly incongruous.

The club itself seems to have recognized that problem, thankfully, and are now embarking on a project to make the course more cohesive.   I'm hopeful we'll be hearing some positive reports about that in the near future.   As we played it, the old holes would be a 5 or even 6, but the new ones maybe 2, if not 0.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 10:49:35 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #163 on: December 31, 2019, 10:48:33 AM »
Mike,


Thanks for all your efforts on putting this thread together. I’ve enjoyed reading along.


Due to my involvement in Sunningdale CC, I’d love to hear or read a detailed analysis of your thoughts on the course, not to defend, but to learn.


If it’s better to do so, feel free to email, call or PM on here.


Thanks, and Happy New Year!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #164 on: December 31, 2019, 10:53:38 AM »
Joe Hancock,

Happy New Year to you and yours, as well!   Will do as you suggest, thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #165 on: December 31, 2019, 11:08:30 AM »
Dorset Field Club - Dorset, VT

Arvin Harrington/Fred Holley/Bill Kent 1886, Arvin Harrington 1896, Steve Durkee 1999
More photos of the Dorset Field Club:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/DorsetFieldClub/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #166 on: December 31, 2019, 11:12:45 AM »
Palmer House Resort Golf Course - Manchester, VT

Wendall Cram/Hans Palmer 1982

Doak Scale Score - 1.5


The domed greens at Palmer House are the smallest I've ever seen, and are incredibly elusive targets even at short distances.

Joe Bausch and I had a few hours to kill before the Travis Society meeting at Ekwanok and Joe being as crazy as I am figured we could sneak in a round.   Neighboring Equinox doesn't open early on Mondays and although we drove out to Manchester CC we didn't have an invite and we were about to give up and get some breakfast.

However, Joe is not known as resourceful researcher extraordinaire "Indiana Joe(nes) for nothing.   Checking his search engine one more time, Joe spotted a lone flag or two in a what seemed to be the lawn of a cottage resort, and sure enough, Palmer House was discovered.  It turns out that the course was built in the early 1980s by Vermont ski legend Wendell Cram (google him) for/with his friend Hans Palmer who owned the resort and it became a little labor of love.

We nervously took a few pictures.   At first I thought the small domed greens to be artificial turf, or something you'd buy to perhaps play some form of mini golf within your house, but indeed, they were shaggy real grass.   We found the lobby and asked if we could play the golf course.   I think the manager assumed we were guests because there was no charge, and really no scorecard (Joe later created one that we sent to the course for future use).   

So off we went for 585 yards of pure pitching pleasure.   There were a few bunkers, a few greens set uncomfortably close to roads, buildings, cars, and pedestrians, and the tiny greens were incredibly difficult to hit and hold (I was very proud of my one GIR).  My favorite may have been the 6th playing over the septic tank. 

I couldn't get the smile off my face the entire round.   
 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #167 on: December 31, 2019, 11:18:33 AM »
Palmer House Resort Golf Course - Manchester, VT

Wendall Cram/Hans Palmer 1982
I'm confident only two people in the whole wide-world have played Palmer House and Ekwanok on the same day.   ;)

More photos of Palmer House (thanks to Matt Frey for creating the scorecard; BTW, I want to meet the fellow that holds the course record of 25 at PH, as I don't think either of us broke 40!):

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PalmerHouse/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #168 on: December 31, 2019, 11:44:00 AM »
Ekwanok Country Club - Manchester, VT

Walter Travis/John Duncan Dunn 1900-1914, Andrew Christie 1928, Donald Ross 1947, Robert Trent Jones 1956, Geoffrey Cornish 1959-1972, George Fazio 1982, Tom Doak/Bruce Hepner 2000

Doak Scale Score - 7


There are few places for a game more charming than the gorgeous setting of Ekwanok.

It is difficult to divorce Ekwanok as a golf course from either it's glorious setting in a valley between the unspoiled Green Mountains of Vermont, or from it's eminent place in the history of the game in the United States.   The entire club just exudes old-world charm in a way that lacks pretense but upholds class and traditions.   Indeed, the clubhouse itself is a virtual museum of American Golf history and the membership is extremely proud of their heritage.

The course unfolds just outside with the first three holes and the last three holes running east and west with an intersecting creek.   While each of those holes are good in their own right, it's when one gets to the more interesting land at the foothills of the Green Mountains in the distance that the course becomes special.   The par five 7th where the second shot needs to be squeezed between natural knobs playing steeply uphill is exhilarating, while the short par four 8th is delightfully puzzling.   Another stretch of gems is the 12th, playing up and over a steep rise to a green set tantalizingly in the valley below, while the downhill par three 13th almost begs for a running left to right approach followed by 14 playing over an old sandpit where one needs the challenge the nest of bunkers down the right side for a preferred angle to a tiny green.   

The presentation of the course is spectacular, as a tree management program and help from Renaissance Golf have really brought the course to a high degree of fine tuning in recent decades.
 
Somewhat incredibly, much like Oakmont the general routing of the golf course is basically unchanged over the past 120 years.   But I also had the feeling that something has been lost over time, and indeed learned that at least five of the greens have been significantly altered (re: tamed, neutered) during the 1960s and sadly that ship has probably sailed.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:46:54 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #169 on: December 31, 2019, 11:48:49 AM »
Coming next;

Pine Valley
Sewanee
Black Creek
Sweetens Cove
Lookout Mountain
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Pallotta

Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #170 on: December 31, 2019, 12:05:08 PM »
Mike -
I really do defer to your much greater playing experience and insight; it would be foolish of me not to. But Joe H's request re Sunningdale reminded me that, while reading your review of that course, I thought of the one possible drawback of that very experience/insight, i.e. that in knowing more and bringing more to the table, you might 'miss' what a neophyte sees clearly. You think (because you are able to think) in terms of, say, the 'quality of the restoration' or the 'course as it once was' or the 'fate that befalls many classic courses because of misguided Chairs' or 'the stiff competition for a course like Sunningdale in the region'. I couldn't meaningfully think in any of those ways -- and so just might be freer than you are to see/experience that course simply 'as it is - right now'. Isn't that the most important thing? The only important thing? I'm on record as not liking the 'best renovation' category in the golf magazines' yearly lists. It's not only because I don't understand how most panelists/raters can make such nuanced assessments; it's also because I can't understand why it matters. The renovated course exists 'as it is' as much as and in much the same way as a brand new course. The 'history' and 'quality of past renovations' etc are all interesting subjects for discussion, on here at gca.com. But if an average golfer like me showed up to play a course like Sunningdale for the first time, I'd *experience* that golf course in precisely the same way as I would one built in 2018. Why would any other 'information' be important to me? Why *should* it be important to me?
Anyway - an aside, as per usual. Enjoying this.
best
P       
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:17:28 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #171 on: December 31, 2019, 12:05:27 PM »
Ekwanok Country Club - Manchester, VT

Walter Travis/John Duncan Dunn 1900-1914, Andrew Christie 1928, Donald Ross 1947, Robert Trent Jones 1956, Geoffrey Cornish 1959-1972, George Fazio 1982, Tom Doak/Bruce Hepner 2000
What he said.  Grin.

More photos of Ekwanok here (what a wonderful day it was!):

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Ekwanok/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #172 on: December 31, 2019, 12:27:54 PM »
Mike -
I really do defer to your much greater playing experience and insight; it would be foolish of me not to. But Joe H's request re Sunningdale reminded me that, while reading your review of that course, I thought of the one possible drawback of that very experience/insight, i.e. that in knowing more and bringing more to the table, you might 'miss' what a neophyte sees clearly. You think (because you are able to think) in terms of, say, the 'quality of the restoration' or the 'course as it once was' or the 'fate that befalls many classic courses because of misguided Chairs' or 'the stiff competition for a course like Sunningdale in the region'. I couldn't meaningfully think in any of those ways -- and so just might be freer than you are to see/experience that course simply 'as it is - right now'. Isn't that the most important thing? The only important thing? I'm on record as not liking the 'best renovation' category in the golf magazines' yearly lists. It's not only because I don't understand how must panelists/raters can make such nuanced assessments; it's also because I can't understand why it matters. The renovated course exists 'as it is' as much as and in much the same way as a brand new course. The 'history' and 'quality of past renovations' etc are all interesting subjects for discussion, on here at gca.com. But if an average golfer like me showed up to play a course like Sunningdale for the first time, I'd *experience* that golf course in precisely the same way as I would one built in 2018. Why would any other 'information' be important to me? Why *should* it be important to me?
Anyway - an aside, as per usual. Enjoying this.
best
P       

Peter,

That's a very wise observation, and I agree that it could be a pitfall of being a golf historical nerd like I admittedly am.   

I generally try to learn as much as possible about a course i've played or am about to play so I can understand what I'm seeing from that aspect, as well, but agree that to most observers all that is germane is the course they are playing on that day "as it is" is all that matters, and really should be all that matters.

The problem is that once I learn something about the evolution of a golf course i can't un-learn it but that cuts both ways.  In other words, I'll look at old aerials and see that the original course may have been generally tree-less but then see straight rows of trees planted in the 1950s and 60s, growing larger and taking up more of the golf course space, as in the case of Honesdale, for instance.   So when I see much the same practice over the decades at Sunningdale, only to see steps taken to recover what once was I generally point those things out in a favorable way because those changes for better or worse do indeed affect that golf course that one plays today.

Whether it's the pool at Berkshire turning the original par five 17th into a nothing-burger of a short par four, short par four finish, or the driving range at St. Davids creating an awkward finish, I think I mention these things to explain what one would experience today in a way that someone like you playing for the first time might instinctively feel something amiss but would read this and then say to yourself, "ahhh...so that's what happened!"

Glad you're enjoying.   Happy New Year to you and yours!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:32:21 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #173 on: December 31, 2019, 12:56:40 PM »
Dorset Field Club - Dorset, VT

Arvin Harrington/Fred Holley/Bill Kent 1886, Arvin Harrington 1896, Steve Durkee 1999

Doak Scale Score - 4


The oldest nine holes on the property are draped elegantly on the land as seen here with the parallel par three 2nd hole (looking back towards the tee) and par three 8th hole (green behind bunker) to a ridgetop green set perilously close to the quaint little town.

Dorset Field Club claims to be the oldest golf course continually played in the United States, dating back to 1886.   I had hoped to find proof of that but it's largely based on one anecdotal account and then the original got lost during copying and the story gets a little complicated.  What we do know for certain is that there had to be enough golf activity and membership for a new clubhouse to be built specifically for the purpose by 1896, so it's a very old golf course in any case.

The original nine holes were all what I'd hoped to find.   Quaint, no little earthmoving, draped on the lovely rolling land in unusual and interesting ways that perhaps no one would dare design today and while some may quibble the greens may be too small or too tilted I found them delightful.

The problem is that the club at some point round the turn of 20th century decided they needed a real 18 hole golf course and built a new nine holes.   I'm not sure why because the land seemed lovely without much effort but those holes required tons of earth-moving to shape into place and seemingly without adding much merit to the holes themselves.   It would probably not matter so much if you could still play the original nine but the new holes are interspersed with each nine such that they are jarringly incongruous.

The club itself seems to have recognized that problem, thankfully, and are now embarking on a project to make the course more cohesive.   I'm hopeful we'll be hearing some positive reports about that in the near future.   As we played it, the old holes would be a 5 or even 6, but the new ones maybe 2, if not 0.

Looking at the Bausch collection for Dorset Field Club, I was pleasantly surprised to see the amount movement and terrain around the new holes.  While 4 is not a hole I would want on a course, the stretch from 12-16 moves over some interesting ground. 

Here is 12, the short par 3.



If the green within that punch bowl were a true punch bowl, I think this hole might be stronger still.  But still, this is an interestingly framed shot. 

Here's the green site in question:



The rear bunker seems superfluous and the front buyer gratuitous.  You could lose both and better still pull the green back and left (from the tee) to fill in the punchbowl.  None-the-less, not what I would call a 0.

13 has a nice "between the dune" feel, and 14 and 15 benefit from this, as well. 

As for 2/8, well, no one builds par 3's that fly over the green of other par 3's any more, so that's cool in it's own way.  And 8, with the diagonal line of play and near dogleg layout will always be interesting.

Since this isn't far from home I'll be angling to get over there, soon.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

corey miller

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Re: My 2019 in Review - An attempt at "Frank Commentary and Discussion"
« Reply #174 on: December 31, 2019, 01:00:32 PM »
Joe Hancock/Mike CThe work at Sunningdale is fantastic.  I love Maxwell rolls and the work at Sunningdale is reminiscent of those.  Perhaps my favorite set of "modern" greens because they seem to "fit" the property so well.  They make the course.My two quibbles ( I only quibble with the "artist" on aesthetics) are the cart path between #14 green and #15 tee...I want to see an all world green-tee-green melding.AndI love the mounding/speed slot that was built on the left side of the #6 fairway.  Show it off...Eliminate any trees near it that are visible from the tee and especially the few that are in the background.  With the hump I want to see through to #7 tee 400 yards away.  I believe you built this? Show the darn thing off!!!!I only mention my two "points" to you because I am steadfast that this is some of the best restoration work I have seen.  Kudos to you and Mike D. and Mike M