"I Think the cultural momentum behind walking . . . is too strong."

[MCirba]

Carts are not an issue if used sensibly. For me, the far bigger issue with carts are cart paths.


Happy Hockey

But they never are used sensibly by everyone, are they? 


I've seen more damage and disfigurement of golf courses from riding carts than from any other cause, particularly on clay based soils. 


The alternative seems  to be "cart path only" which reinstates the benefits of walking to a degree but leads to 5+ hour rounds and ugly wall to wall macadam.


They are a blight on the game visually, functionally, and negate most of the healthful enjoyment Dr. Mackenzie described.


I would concede they hold a cooler of beer better than a pushcart, however.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm so dumb that I didn't even know the term 'woke' until President Obama decried it a few weeks ago. And even then I had to look it up on google. But know that I know it, I see the woke culture/sentiment everywhere! Even the quote in the OP seems to be an example. And the woke 'stance' as far as I can tell only serves two functions: 1) to tell people they're stupid, and that you're smarter than them, and 2) to sell them something.
Ugh. I think I'm going to go back to sleep now, and wait until spring for golf season to start.
Thank goodness for the game. And thank goodness we (and rating panelists) are all so open-minded an un-woke

[Sean_A]

Carts are not an issue if used sensibly. For me, the far bigger issue with carts are cart paths.

Happy Hockey

But they never are used sensibly by everyone, are they? 

I've seen more damage and disfigurement of golf courses from riding carts than from any other cause, particularly on clay based soils. 

The alternative seems  to be "cart path only" which reinstates the benefits of walking to a degree but leads to 5+ hour rounds and ugly wall to wall macadam.

They are a blight on the game visually, functionally, and negate most of the healthful enjoyment Dr. Mackenzie described.

I would concede they hold a cooler of beer better than a pushcart, however.

I guess cart policy is for each establishment to decide. In my ideal world there would be  no paths and carts allowed only when the weather and course conditions can support carts. That said, if a place wants to lay roads through the course I can avoid it should I wish. If I want to hang with certain people or play certain courses it's down to me to fit in. With a few exceptions, I have not found these sacrifices terribly overbearing. After all, I get to play golf my way probably 99% of the time. However, I grant this is likely easier to do given my post code.

Happy Hockey

[MCirba]

Agreed, Sean. 


Happy Hockey to you, as well.   

[Lou_Duran]

Ironically, I heard it more than a few times on the other side of the pond that without American visitors, Scottish golf would be near death.  You know, that terrible consumerism that buys £400k of rain suits in a 3-4 month period at Royal Dornoch, puts £3+M in greenfees at RCD, and keeps hundreds of middle age caddies employed at a tax-free daily wage considerably higher than their opportunity costs.  I wonder what percentage of visitors to Bandon Dunes derive their disposable income from entities other than "big business" and "big government".
     

Why is it that the same guys who believe the bottom line is the answer to all arguments, turn on a dime and start projecting other reasoning when discussing a place like Bandon Dunes where the bottom line seems to repudiate their preferred argument?

Huh?


You are an excellent golf architect, but your halo does not extend to an understanding of economics, human behavior, or how the world works.  Even Hunter came around to his senses as his perception of human nature and the world became closer to reality through experience later in life.   


It does not suit you to mischaracterize my positions in order to give weight to yours.   Yes, I do not view profits and business in the same negative light as you do.  Which really amazes me because you owe your livelihood to people who are able to produce much more than they consume, and who, for the most part, owe their success to attracting customers with disposable income, i.e. that they produce more income than they consume for living expenses and taxes.


Bemoaning consumerism and "big business" might help you rationalize the incongruence- maybe you need a boogie man to get up some days, but give me a break.  You think that a guy in the northeast punching away on the keyboard ad naseum and whining that his talents aren't properly appreciated by the marketplace is the among those who pay Mike Keiser $300+ to play a round of golf?  How many of your courses cater to the poor?   

[Bernie Bell]

Once you're woke to the woke, Peter, life won't be the same.

[SL_Solow]

Another of our perpetual topics that reemerge under various rubrics from time to time.  There will be no reconciliation on this topic.  As most know by now, I am a walker.  I think the game is better, a lack of carts improves conditioning, and cart paths adversely impact architecture and play.  I live in the Chicago area where the Evans Scholar program has created a strong caddy culture.  I prefer playing with a caddy and favor a program where the majority of caddies are students earning money on summer vacations and getting exposed to the game.  My club has a strong caddy culture but even here, approximately 50% of the rounds are with caddies and 50% are cart rounds.  A few are with pull carts or carrying , not enough to be statistically significant.  Incidentally, before I joined my club, I played public golf and either carried my bag or used a "trolly".


If people want to ride that is fine with me so long as they respect the game.  The same is true for walkers but cart abuse seems to be more extreme.  Having served on the local golf association, I know how many facilities depend on cart revenue even after deducting all the so called hidden costs.  So I think we all waste a lot of time arguing whether carts should be permitted.  Mike Keiser makes it work; I don't believe many other facilities can do the same.  Incidentally, those guardians of free choice who seem to resent Keiser's walking only model seem to say very little about courses that require carts.


That said, at least for our purposes, the real question is how carts impact architecture.  To the extent it is necessary to hide them, they lead to extra expense and alter holes.  By making it easier to move from green to tee, they encourage less compact routings.
Of course, housing development courses, combined with carts, had the greatest impact on this type of routing.


I know I have only scratched the surface regarding the impact of carts on course design.  I would be interested in learning more from the professionals. But to continue the argument about walking versus carts, as if it's a battle between guardians of the game versus champions of free choice, is an exercise in futility.  Each facility needs to make its own decision.  But our discussion would be better centered on how to minimize any deleterious impact of carts on design, maintenance and pace of play.

[MCirba]

Lou,


Every post really does not need to turn into a repudiation of Keynesian economics.  Too often you try to force fit your Ayn Rand-loving macro-economic philosophy into an argument where it is only loosely related.


If $80 per customer is what it costs to break even or achieve profitability whether each paying customer walks or rides I'm not sure why the rest is needing to be interjected?  You're battling a strawman of your own creation, my friend.

[Lou_Duran]

Wow, Lou...a lot to unpack there but I will just say I'm all for economic models that work and are sustainable.  Not sure how you inferred all of that from what I wrote but I won't defend points I never made in the first place.  If higher green fees for walkers are required to cover expenses that's economic reality.


Ideally, Cobb's Creek will be walking only with caddies but that won't be my decision.

Not much to unpack Mike.  It was not me who spoke derisively ("plopping their asses", "shitiest architecture") about the preferences of others.


Funny, I suspect that among walkers, I am probably in the top 5-10% or so in terms of consistency (I haven't ridden a round on my home course for three years, including during the hot Texas summers).  Yet, the last thing I would be for is to make my course "walking only", and never with caddies required.  Talking about an unsustainable economic model!  I wonder how many public golfers you would be disfranchising at CC if you're able to force your preference.


Lastly, I've been a member of several clubs with strong riding cultures.  Yeah, sometimes you can hear the music, but is that any worse than walkers' clubs clanking behind you?  Other than the occasional speed of play and not sanding divots complaints, I've never heard strong objections from CartBallers about walkers.  Check that, I did hear once that walkers do not contribute their fair share to the operation of a private club as cart fees have the highest effective profit margins (revenues - costs).     

[William_G]

Once you're woke to the woke, Peter, life won't be the same.

LOL, the woke only stay awake if their smartphone has it in their calendar

[William_G]

growing the game in the US relied on carts not walking and remains so


it is a bummer of the "economy" that breathes life into golf biz at it's current level


cart golf can be fun no doubt, especially at the greatest modern course in the US, Sand Hills


cart paths suck and as thus associated with carts means that carts suck worse 

[Bernie Bell]

Lou didn't introduce the subject to the thread, he responded to it.   

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,


"Keynesian economics"? Ayn Rand?  Strawman?  And who's doing the interjecting?


You may wish to look up projection.


I did not know that Lord Keynes had anything to say about golf carts, and if he would have, it would be to spend more to stimulate, not less.


Ditto for Rand.  My suspicion is that she would be disappointed with your understanding of her philosophies.  It has been a while, but I think she would advocate for more choices and free exchange.


Your characterization of the cart rider is a perfect example of said Strawman.  How about the walker whose clubs clank away while his mates are trying to set up for their shots and doesn't carry sand to fill his divots?  Is he representative of walkers?


Are we on for 2020?  Might be visiting Philly for the first time to play golf.


 






 

[Lou_Duran]

Lou didn't introduce the subject to the thread, he responded to it.

Thank you Bernie.


That is always the case, though I catch a lot of heat for doing so.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I prefer to walk, but spend a lot of time in carts. My most played course is a pain to walk, but it's close by and we can get out almost any time, even if that means driving out to hole 13 or 4 or something.

I can play faster on cart-path-only days than I can walking. I can play 18 holes, in a twosome, in two hours in a cart allowed to go anywhere, and that takes about 2:30 when walking (I've done it in 2:15, but that's at a really old course with very close greens and tees, and no lost balls, etc.).

I appreciate that cart paths and carts are "bad" for golf. They're expensive, and unsightly, and cause damage. I also appreciate that without cart revenue, many courses would likely be closed.

If you enjoy golf, good for you. I don't care how you enjoy it. If you want to roll your ball in the fairway, give yourself four footers, and ride in a cart… so be it! At least you're enjoying the game I love! Who am I to judge you for riding in a cart?

My friend José, who has since passed away, had to play in a cart, and even play executive courses in a cart, but otherwise looked fine. He had a heart condition that ultimately took his life after his second heart transplant, but I introduced him to golf and he could only play in a cart. It's sad to think that someone in another fairway might have been judging an otherwise healthy looking 26-year-old guy for riding in a cart, even while playing the 4300 yard executive course we'd play from time to time.

So long as people are good to the course, and good to each other, why does anyone care if they're in a cart or not?

P.S. I love taking a caddie, too, but man… I'd play a LOT less golf if I had to shell out an extra $100 every time I played.

[David_Elvins]

I know this topic comes up often but has anyone yet been able to produce data that shows that golf carts generate income greater than their associated expenses? And if so, how much?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I know this topic comes up often but has anyone yet been able to produce data that shows that golf carts generate income greater than their associated expenses? And if so, how much?

Practically every PGA apprentice could tell you that carts are highly profitable. Well, the ones who don't fake all of their work portfolio can, anyway.

And some golf courses wouldn't exist without carts, not just for the profits, but because they'd be unplayable by the great many (some by choice, some by age/disability/etc.).

[SL_Solow]

David,
      In the April 4, 2014 issue of the USGA Green Section Record, Adam Moeller published an article attempting to model the revenue and costs from operating a cart fleet.  The article is 5 years old and contains a few questionable assumptions but it is a great place to start.  While the conclusion is that carts contribute significantly to the bottom line, I suspect it understated their economic benefit at the time.  I know a number of experienced operators in the public sector and none of them are in any hurry to eliminate their cart fleet. This alone suggests that carts are valuable economically to facilities as these individuals are profit motivated.  Moreover, the one imponderable is the reduction in rounds/greens fees/merchandise sales/food revenue if carts were not readily available.  Nonetheless, the article is quite good in identifying non-obvious costs which should be considered when considering the economic impact of carts.

[Jeff Loh]

Clanking clubs VS Music in carts?
Really??

[John Kavanaugh]

Clanking clubs VS Music in carts?
Really??

I've never had anyone ask my permission to clank their irons.

[Mark_Fine]

So what is the root cause for why more people are riding in carts vs. walking?  Maybe it is because the most admired architects like C&C built “cartball” courses like The Plantation Course at Kapalua 20 plus years ago and started or at least added to this whole mess we are in   It sure didn’t help showing the world that you can build a great golf course that is not walkable unless you are a billy goat or like cross country hiking and six hour rounds (even the pros during a tournament get carted around between holes).  I love to walk (honestly it is hard to appreciate a golf course riding in a cart), but some people aren’t there to admire the details of the architecture, they are there for other reasons and that is just fine.  At least they are participating in some way in the sport.  I just played in a tournament in Maui two weeks ago and half the people that played would not have been able to walk the golf course we played (the Emerald Course at Wailea).  And for a shotgun start with groups on all 18 tees it would be pretty tough to get the event going without carts.  There is a purpose for carts and I don’t think it has ruined the game of golf.  For many it has extended the time they can play the game.  And by the way, I have NEVER been to a golf course that didn’t allow me to walk.  I might have been forced to take a caddie if I didn’t want to ride, or take a forecaddie and let him or her drive the cart or pay for the cart anyway and just carry my own bag or take a trolley, but I could always find a way to walk if I wanted to. 


More courses are closing than opening these days.  If we took carts away, guess what would happen.  To each his own!

[David_Elvins]

Practically every PGA apprentice could tell you that carts are highly profitable. Well, the ones who don't fake all of their work portfolio can, anyway.

Would a PGA apprentice really know the costs of running a Golf course that has carts?  They would know the cost of constructing cart paths? The cost of building a storage facility? The cost of repairing wear and damage to the golf course caused by carts? 


Surely it's only  ignoring of these types of costs that would lead anyone to conclude that carts are HIGHLY profitable?

[David_Elvins]

More courses are closing than opening these days.  If we took carts away, guess what would happen.  To each his own!

Maybe carts are part of the reason why courses are closing? 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Would a PGA apprentice really know the costs of running a Golf course that has carts?  They would know the cost of constructing cart paths? The cost of building a storage facility? The cost of repairing wear and damage to the golf course caused by carts?

My point was that as part of their work portfolio they have to do a lot of lame spreadsheets around their facility's operations: carts, merchandising, food and beverage, etc. They see how much revenue carts bring in, and are at least vaguely aware of their operating costs. (Those who don't just make everything up, that is, which may be a small minority.)

Surely it's only  ignoring of these types of costs that would lead anyone to conclude that carts are HIGHLY profitable?

That would depend on how you define "highly," I suppose.

But, I will echo the sentiment above: not many for-profit courses seem to be itching to ditch their cart fleet and go walking only, do they?

[Tom_Doak]

There is nothing in my opening post on this thread, or any of my subsequent posts, where I say anything in favor of taking away golf carts.  I merely objected that the managing editor of GOLF DIGEST had objected to the "culture" of those who prefer to walk.  And, now that you mention it, yes, that does sound like a FOX NEWS story with its intentional dog whistle.


It's funny (actually, not) how this argument devolves into the same tropes as the political battle about gun control, with the same tropes brought out by the same side in each case.  Do you guys really believe that banning carts anywhere is the first step in a Machivellian plot to ban them everywhere?


I mean, you might as well, since I believe that in each case the primary purpose for which they are defended is to sell as many of them as possible, without any care for the consequences, pro or con.