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Peter Flory

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2019, 05:37:02 PM »


P.S.  Drives my wife crazy because we can't go more than a hour or two before i'll start carrying on about how "wouldn't this spot  be perfect, you could fit in a nice little par 3 right there, yada, yada"....until she finally tells me to shut it!  ;D


It is sort of a golf architecture lover's disease... not being able to look at a nice piece of nature without imagining golf holes on it. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2019, 05:46:25 PM »


I've logged tens of thousands of miles in various drives between those 3 places over the last 25-30 years and taken lots of little side roads to see different terrain, in addition to countless weekend drives.  Even long before I joined this site, I would constantly scan for interesting land forms, terrains and locations where I wonder if a great golf course could be built.  I have a few specific spots I've seen several times where i'm convinced, but i'm guessing I error on this side of thinking too many of these sites are actually good!


I still do that sometimes - and I might actually be able to make it happen!


But, if you see the land from a major road, you probably don't want to be playing golf that close to the highway.

William_G

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2019, 05:47:09 PM »
It's all about the golf!

archie_struthers

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2019, 09:17:09 PM »
 8) :-*


When I first discovered this site it was just so much fun. Wanted to share all I knew (or thought I knew) with the huddled masses. Then learned so much from all of you as time went on. This whole thread is wonderful and really enjoyed it much like olden times when it was so new to me!

Kalen Braley

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2019, 09:25:08 PM »


P.S.  Drives my wife crazy because we can't go more than a hour or two before i'll start carrying on about how "wouldn't this spot  be perfect, you could fit in a nice little par 3 right there, yada, yada"....until she finally tells me to shut it!  ;D

It is sort of a golf architecture lover's disease... not being able to look at a nice piece of nature without imagining golf holes on it.


Peter exactly, and my wife lets me carry on for a bit cause its nowhere near the worst of my foibles she endures!  ;D


P.S.  Damn it Tom, that's exactly the reason why, although I can think of a few courses right off the highway on the top 100 list like Oakmont and SFGC.  But more often that not its the realization of being in a such a remote spot and the aforementioned Interstate that kills the dream....until I spot the next good piece of property!

Sean_A

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2019, 03:30:23 AM »
I wish I took detailed photos of Burnham's 6th hole side by side with temporary. It was a perfect lesson in the differences between a discovered green and a built green to a personal plan. For one, it's very easy to see how built greens can quickly look and play samey.

Me too. That lay-of-the-land temp on the 6th was wonderful. In fact I think there were at times two different temps and both were delightful. And the seemingly lay-of-the-land 7th green, which presumably hasn't had much done to it other than maybe a bit of smoothing, is I've always thought an absolute gem.
atb

ATB

One thing that really hit me was the difference in size. The built green isn't big, yet the space it takes up compared to the temp green is enormous. I also noticed the efficiency of the natural VS built tie in to the surrounds. When seeing the two next to each other it really made sense as to why built golf requires so much more land. The thing is, I preferred the temp green!

Happy Thanksgiving
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2019, 03:52:59 AM »
Gentlemen,


Just my tuppence worth to say what a terrific thread this has been. I got a wee thrill when I saw the opening gambit by Mark and thought that this would be a "good un" from my perspective ....and it has been! Thanks to all who are contributing ... just wonderful stuff.


Cheers Col
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2019, 07:10:33 AM »
One of the interesting things about this thread, to me, is that most of you only seem able to discuss the difference in conceptual form, instead of using examples in the real world.  Can you really not tell the difference between built and found on the courses you all claim to know so well? 


When I used to try to figure out whether something was important in golf architecture or not, I would just go back to the rankings, and count up how many of the best courses had that feature, and how many didn't.  So:  how many of the recent top 100 were built, and how many were found?


Yes, most courses are hybrids . . . some parts found, and others built . . . but I will assign "built" as the category where I believe many of the features you think of when I say the name, were built rather than found.



I will start you off:


Pine Valley is built.  Just having to clear all the pine trees destroyed whatever little contours were on the ground so that they had to be rebuilt.  Those bunkers along #2 aren't natural.  That big old bluff of a green on #1 isn't natural, and neither is the one on #3.


Oakmont is built.  Yes, it generally follows natural grade . . . the greens that were built on downslopes mostly still fall away.  But all those bunkers and trenches?  Built.


Tara Iti is built.  Total clearing, so all the contours had to be rebuilt - sound familiar?  25% of the dunes you see are our additions, with tree stumps and debris buried under them.  It's more lightly built than Pine Valley, because that's the way everyone who works for me has learned to do it, but it's built.


Bandon Dunes is built, to my eye.  Jim Haley, David's lead shaper, had worked for Rees Jones for years, and I don't think he could find a green in the Sand Hills of Nebraska.  The site was covered in gorse ten feet tall when they started, and they cleared it with bulldozers, tearing up the ground pretty good as they went.






Sand Hills, obviously, is found.  There are only four greens there where they changed existing grade at all; I know because I hit balls around it before they built anything.


Pacific Dunes is found.  The fire that happened before construction burned down all the gorse to ankle high, so we could go along with an excavator and a root rake and clear exactly along the lines we wanted, and not disturb the contours underneath too much.  Most of the greens are shaped, but the only ones I can think of where we changed the elevation more than a foot are #1 [quite a bit of fill], #4 [dug out from the dune], #11 [dug into the dune], #14 [cut off the top of a dune], and #15 [there was a plateau that same shape and size, but it was quite a bit higher].  Oh, and #18, the right half of it is a bunch of fill placed in a deep hollow.  There were a couple of big dunes we took away -- one of them blocked the 18th fairway right at the turn point -- but the big bunker on the left is unchanged except for where the dune was removed.  Digging bunkers was generally a matter of flagging the shapes I wanted onto the ground, digging them out a bit and just losing the dirt somewhere back in the fairway . . . nearly all of the top lines of the bunkers are natural grade.


Cypress Point, I would say, is found.  MacKenzie was not afraid to plop down a big chunk of fill to give himself a place to build a fairway bunker or green site -- #10 is a great example -- but the famous holes like 8 and 9 and 13 and 15 and 16, and some of the better ones that don't get much credit like #2, are all about natural landforms.




The Old Course at St. Andrews . . . is a tough call.  It certainly isn't entirely natural.  The first and last holes are built . . . the Swilcan burn was dumping into a wider feature right there 150 years ago.  The Road green is built, and so was the Stationmaster's Garden.  I'll assume that features like the mounds on #2 and #4 were found, but I can't swear to it.  Most of the plateau greens were found, but I am sure that when the course was widened, there was some real shaping done at the edges of greens like 14.  Some of the bunkers had natural origins, or just evolved from play over time; others are known to be deliberate additions.




So . . . is Mark correct that Pine Valley, Oakmont, Tara Iti, and Bandon Dunes are the ultimate display of golf architecture? 
Or is it Sand Hills, Cypress Point, Pacific Dunes, and The Old Course at St. Andrews?




If it's the former, then how would you explain that some of those examples were "built" by guys who had never designed a course before, while many of the latter were built by the most celebrated designers of their age?




There's something for you all to ponder over Thanksgiving.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2019, 07:52:57 AM »
Tom,

I think you have it wrong.

The former courses you mention are built on absolutely top notch sites that just needed a bit of work. Build a great course on a pancake flat, clay site and then I'm on board with Mark's point. You have married the art with the science and engineering.

Of course, these kind of built projects never - in my experience - offer the same level of naturalism and sense of place as a course on a great site, either built or found. In fact, I don't know what the best examples are.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2019, 07:56:02 AM »
 8)


Aha, happy Thanksgiving to all and right to the mat. I'm not buying into Pine Valley being totally "built" being a couple years older than TD and growing up right around the corner from my favorite golf course. My younger brother Steve worked at the the little Ski Mountain where Eric Bergstol "built" the golf course that is now Trump National. It's right next door.  I can tell you there are very few elevation changes in South Jersey, and none like this anywhere south of Trenton save right here around the old Clementon Station.


The fourth hole which is currently my personal fave has a wonderful green that has to have been found by Crump. It sits so perfectly at the bottom of that hill! Turn right and you have that incredible par three that appears to be part of the rise back up to elevation 150' plus or minus. You certainly could say they built 6th green and scoured out lots of earth to build 7 and 10 but what about 9 and 13. The first time I looked over the gronkle and saw the 13th green it spoke volumes. How could it be anywhere else?




Obviously there are lots of man made changes to enable golf to be played on the terrain, but wouldn't this be a hybrid? Crump appears to have found holes and then built links to them. I'm interested in hearing thoughts as to this, and if there is a point where found and built interface.


« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 08:12:39 AM by archie_struthers »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2019, 07:59:42 AM »
First of all Happy Thanksgiving to all!  Also thanks to those who said they are enjoying this thread.  Archie, that was nice to hear you felt like it reminded you of old times.  Some of us have been on this site for a long time.  And by the way what you “built”  ;)  on your course at Twisted Dune is quite impressive. 


Tom,
Great post.  I love all the examples.  I have pointed out several earlier as well.  On some of those that you call “built” courses, the architect of record, as you know, had a lot of help.  Pine Valley was clearly a collaboration with many noted architects assisting Crump.  And Fownes at Oakmont had help and a lot of external advice as well. Loeffler had much to do in that design and was a decent architect in his own right.  Most don’t know but it was Loeffler who designed and “built” the church pews (not Fownes).  The course also evolved dramatically over the years to its greatness. 


Take a course like Merion that is also mostly a “built” course.  Wilson had Flynn with him and together they designed and built that course together.  There are definitely some found holes but even those needed “knocking into shape” as Tillinghast would say.  By the way, I know some here know that Wilson had Flynn seconded to Pine Valley after Crump died (with only 14 holes completed) to help finish the course.  Flynn built the last four holes.  How many here know which green on #9 was added by Flynn?  Flynn stayed on at Pine Valley for eight years as an advisor.  If you study Flynn and play a lot of his golf courses you will know that he “found/built” a lot of holes that resembled/replicated those at Pine Valley.  No surprise since he spent so much time there.


The should be no debate that both finding and building great golf holes takes immense talent.  Every course is to some extent a hybrid and the best designs are the ones where most golfers can’t tell the difference.  But I still will argue that building something great on a marginal site is maybe the most impressive accomplishment and display of talent for an architect. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 08:19:56 AM by Mark_Fine »

Ira Fishman

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2019, 08:08:04 AM »
Mark, can you share some examples of great courses on marginal sites?


Ian, can you share some of the found courses of which you think highly?


Thanks,


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2019, 08:14:43 AM »
If at the wonderful & top rated courses that industry professionals have mentioned above most people can't tell what was built vs what was found, maybe it means that the distinction between the two approaches doesn't actually exist at the highest end/best work, i.e. it isn't one or the other at all, but instead a continuum, and process -- architects 'finding' what needs to be 'built' and/or 'building' up or out or away that which they'd already 'found'.

At the ends, with average work by average workman, maybe many of us can tell the two apart, the built and the found, because the approaches are in those cases binary - there is a dichotomy. But with the best work by the best workmen, that dichotomy disappears -- it literally & figuratively blends together. 

The non professionals like me think 'aha: that here was built and that there was found'; while the working professionals are like 'it's all just earth, and all that matters is the golf course, and I don't want to focus on the process at the expense of the product'.

Writers and critics back in the early bop era wrote millions of words trying to describe/explain Charlie Parker's playing and this 'new' form of jazz; meanwhile, from what I can tell, Parker himself -- until he got tired of repeating it -- would always keep it very simple: "I'm just trying to play clean, and find the pretty notes".


 
   
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 08:16:25 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2019, 08:18:23 AM »
Ira,
I mentioned several in earlier posts on this thread.  While some may debate this, even Oakmont could be tossed out there as a site that would not be one of those that most would say "God meant for this land to be a golf course".  The soil is red clay - Fownes built all those ditches for a reason  ;)


I am being called to help with Thanksgiving (the big family dinner is at our home this year) so I will have limited time to post.  Hope others offer some great examples. 


Mark
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 08:32:09 AM by Mark_Fine »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2019, 08:27:50 AM »
Ira,
I mentioned several in earlier posts on this thread.  While some may debate this, even Oakmont could be tossed out there as a site that would not be one of those that most would say "God meant for this land be a golf course".  The soil is red clay - Fownes built all those ditches for a reason  ;)


I am being called to help with Thanksgiving (the big family dinner is at our home this year) so I will have limited time to post.  Hope others offer some great examples. 


Mark


Happy cooking and Happy Thanksgiving. When you return, I did look at the prior posts and found Leigh and Whistling Straights. For the latter, the ground might of been dead flat, but the setting is not mediocre.


Ira

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2019, 08:37:40 AM »
Quickly peaked again. Didn’t I mention The Castle Course at St. Andrews built on featureless potato fields.  Post more later but I am sure others will have examples.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2019, 08:42:25 AM »
Tom,

I think you have it wrong.

The former courses you mention are built on absolutely top notch sites that just needed a bit of work. Build a great course on a pancake flat, clay site and then I'm on board with Mark's point. You have married the art with the science and engineering.

Of course, these kind of built projects never - in my experience - offer the same level of naturalism and sense of place as a course on a great site, either built or found. In fact, I don't know what the best examples are.


Ally:


The "built" courses I named are all on beautiful sites, but they had to be totally built and anybody else might have done that entirely differently.  I suppose you can say that for the "found", but if the next guy is also trying to "find" his course and is good at it, there are going to be a lot more similarities.


Part of my point was that how many great courses are built on "pancake flat, clay sites" ?  And out of how many attempts ?  The answer is almost none, so to hold that up as the highest standard of golf architecture is pretty silly to me.  It doesn't really produce good results.  Why should we let Mark keep trying if it's all going to turn out like the Castle Course ?  ;D 

Sean_A

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2019, 08:44:29 AM »
To be honest, I don't think the actual difference between built and found makes any difference. It's the execution of the built, which Ian points out, that makes the difference.... most of the time. Which is a reason to question the as build to nature approach... for most people on most sites. It seems to me nature is only the best archie in very limited situations. If few can mimic nature well enough, why is it the go to ideal?

Happy Thanksgiving
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

archie_struthers

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2019, 08:55:31 AM »
 :D




Great would be a stretch for sure. But always loved playing the course Steamshovel Banks built about 90 minutes north of me at Forsgate!

Tim Martin

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Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2019, 09:02:11 AM »
:D




Great would be a stretch for sure. But always loved playing the course Steamshovel Banks built about 90 minutes north of me at Forsgate!


Archie-You have to be proud of some really cool features at Twisted Dune GC. I know it was a tall task getting the site ready to build.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2019, 09:07:18 AM »
The Olympic Club, Shadow Creek, TPC Sawgrass, many of the desert courses on flat land like Talking Stick, Bayonne GC, Liberty National, Chambers Bay, there are dozens of excellent courses built on old gravel pits and landfills and brownfield sites. Google it 😊

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2019, 09:10:09 AM »

As to dead flat, clay sites I’d welcome folks thoughts on what MacKenzie (and Koontz) come up with in the late 1920’s for the two courses at the Jockey Club in Buenos Aires and the works execution.
Atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2019, 09:25:01 AM »
re-reading some posts, I think there's a life lesson here too:
for beginners/enthusiasts in any endeavour, it begins with an embracing of absolutes -- right-wrong; good-bad; yes-no; but if they stay with it long enough, and stay in the game, and make the 'game' more important than themselves, it ends not in relativism but in a kind of transcending of those absolutes: in the words of a great writer of old, there is then no yes-and-no, just a yes   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2019, 09:40:27 AM »
The Olympic Club, Shadow Creek, TPC Sawgrass, many of the desert courses on flat land like Talking Stick, Bayonne GC, Liberty National, Chambers Bay, there are dozens of excellent courses built on old gravel pits and landfills and brownfield sites.




That's a few courses, and a couple of them are excellent, and some of the others are pretty good.  At least one is a $100m waste of time, and almost none of them are in the top 100 list, though that is not the cutoff for "excellent," obviously. 




I have great respect for the amount of work and effort that goes into building such courses.  I've done it a few times myself, and I know how hard it is.


But -- I DO NOT think that they should be celebrated as examples of the pinnacle of the profession.  The ASGCA tends to promote these projects to prove that they are great environmental stewards, but they are telling people the future of golf is on crap land, and that will lead to ever more restrictions on building golf courses on beautiful land.  Guess why Mike Keiser doesn't call them about his next project?  They are consigning themselves to a future of awful projects.  That was the curse of Pete Dye:  once you get a reputation for making something out of nothing, nobody has an incentive to give you anything good to start with.


Plus, nearly of the courses you have touted above were enormously expensive, and uneconomical.  Yes, some golf course architect and particularly some contractor made bank off of them, but their success relies on gambling revenues, or the PGA Tour turning swampland into its HQ, or burying toxic waste.  Is that what you want golf course development to be about?




My own most "built" course is Stone Eagle.  It wasn't a dump in any sense -- it's a beautiful site, but it was severely rugged and rocky, and I think we were pretty clever to get it built for a construction budget of $12 million.  I love the golf course, and I'm really proud of the work that was done there, a lot of it by Eric Iverson and Kyle Franz. 


BUT the project itself actually cost $75 million to develop, which was never going to see a return.  Just a few years after the course opened, they had burned through $25m of the developer's money, $25m of private investors' money, and $14.5m of the bank's money . . . before selling it to a group of very wealthy members who got it at a bargain price.  That's embarrassing.  I doubt I'm going to get a lot of calls to do that again, but if I do, I will be compelled to warn them what they are getting into.


Adding:  sorry Peter, I might have just contradicted your last point there.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Build vs Find - Maybe this is the truest test?
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2019, 09:43:32 AM »

As to dead flat, clay sites I’d welcome folks thoughts on what MacKenzie (and Koontz) come up with in the late 1920’s for the two courses at the Jockey Club in Buenos Aires and the works execution.
Atb


It's cool, for what it is.  They didn't try to change the world, they just made it drain, and gave the flat land a good amount of variety while still being essentially flat.  It's about what I would have done for The Rawls Course, if our client hadn't wanted to hide all of the ugly buildings on the east side of the property.  We moved 5x as much dirt as the golf needed in order to do that, and make it look natural.