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John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 8
10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« on: November 25, 2019, 04:53:05 PM »
These are courses that you can take a close friend but acquaintances and business associates beware. My top 10.


Tobacco Rd
Mystic Dunes
Lawsonia Links
Purgatory
Pasatiempo
Wolf Run RIPPGMIS
Sweetens Cove
Santa Anita
Hulman Links
Glenn Echo




MCirba

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2019, 05:03:07 PM »
Palmer House.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 8
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2019, 05:05:17 PM »

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2019, 05:07:27 PM »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Pallotta

Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2019, 05:31:09 PM »
I can't contribute (save to say that I'd fully expect Tobacco Road to one day ruin what already-tenuous friendships I may have with Sean and AG) -- but I wanted to add that this is a very good thread idea.
On other rating threads, folks like Tom D and Ian A essentially said that 'originality'/'uniqueness' was an important value for them in rating a golf course. I found that striking -- and wondered if it wasn't (almost) completely a function of their status as architects.
For me, I can't see how that's 'fair' at all to a given course, i.e. judging it not so much for what it is, but for what it isn't (ie unique). Plus, if I only visit 30 wonderful courses instead of hundreds and hundreds, my sense of uniqueness will be very different than theirs, so the whole concept is even more 'relative' than many of the other (almost equally) relative criterion involved in rating courses. 
Which I suppose is part of their point, and indeed part of point of having 'experienced' travelers rating golf courses. 
But somehow it doesn't seem quite right to me -- the 'bonus points' for being different/unique.
How about bonus points instead for doing the 'common', i.e. what good architects have been doing for 100 years, but doing it exceptionally and terrifically well?
But maybe the 'common done exceptionally & terrifically well' is actually more rare -- and harder to 'see' & appreciate -- than the 'unique', and even 'the original' (?)
P

PS - I think 'one of a kind' is different than 'unique' and 'original', even though that's what 'unique' and 'original' are supposed to mean...but rarely do mean when it comes to gca, or to most any other art-craft for that matter. 
"Original greatness" is the rarest thing of all, the pearl of great price.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 06:05:10 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JMEvensky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 05:39:42 PM »
Stadium Course at Sawgrass is the most polarizing course I've ever played with a group of friends.

V_Halyard

  • Total Karma: 11
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2019, 06:27:51 PM »
I would add Bandon Trails to JK's list

Mike Sweeney

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2019, 06:41:20 PM »
Yale is #1 for me. Some "famous quotes":
  • My buddy with a 20ish handicap was jacked when he had 79 strokes on the 17th green. He finished with a 90, and has never been back.
  • I said to my beautiful friend Barb, "Maybe you should move up one set of tees." She NEVER came back to Yale. To be fair, she never got married either despite many opportunities.
  • Head of fancy golfing society in NYC where I was a member back in the day, "Yes, we did an outing at Yale a few years back..."
  • Parent of NCAA golfer from University of Texas on the 9th hole tee, "Where is the clown's nose?"
  • Question from USGA Official: "What is the square footage of the greens?" Answer from Yale: "I don't know. We measure our greens in acres!"
  • Directed at me on the first tee at Yale on a late Sunday afternoon: "Hey, can I play with you guys?" Me: "My son is Autistic and I was just going on a 'hike with golf', please take the tee." Answer: "I know he is Autistic, that is why I WANT to play with you..."
Fabulous place, and hopefully the Golf ranking does not ruin it.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2019, 06:56:20 PM »
I'll add a few Jim Engh courses to this list:

Redlands Mesa, Black Rock, and Sanctuary...but at least that last one has a grotto....  ;D

Buck Wolter

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2019, 07:06:33 PM »
Glen Echo on the list intrigues me -- I have always thought of it as under-appreciated mainly due to its location but not necessarily polarizing. You might put the entire St Louis Metro area on the list.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 8
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2019, 07:17:46 PM »
Glen Echo on the list intrigues me -- I have always thought of it as under-appreciated mainly due to its location but not necessarily polarizing. You might put the entire St Louis Metro area on the list.


Buck,


I just thought Glenn Echo was way harder than advertised. A perfect example why so few Foulis courses still exist. It's a place where like all the courses I mentioned would be a great place to take a friend from GCA. A Union rep, not so sure.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 8
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2019, 07:19:36 PM »
I would add Bandon Trails to JK's list


As I may also add Kingsbarns.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 8
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2019, 07:38:37 PM »
I'll add a few Jim Engh courses to this list:

Redlands Mesa, Black Rock, and Sanctuary...but at least that last one has a grotto....  ;D


Friends who had followed me all over the country with no questions asked almost drove off and left me at Awarii Dunes.

Tim_Weiman

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2019, 11:33:23 PM »
Yale is #1 for me. Some "famous quotes":
  • My buddy with a 20ish handicap was jacked when he had 79 strokes on the 17th green. He finished with a 90, and has never been back.
  • I said to my beautiful friend Barb, "Maybe you should move up one set of tees." She NEVER came back to Yale. To be fair, she never got married either despite many opportunities.
  • Head of fancy golfing society in NYC where I was a member back in the day, "Yes, we did an outing at Yale a few years back..."
  • Parent of NCAA golfer from University of Texas on the 9th hole tee, "Where is the clown's nose?"
  • Question from USGA Official: "What is the square footage of the greens?" Answer from Yale: "I don't know. We measure our greens in acres!"
  • Directed at me on the first tee at Yale on a late Sunday afternoon: "Hey, can I play with you guys?" Me: "My son is Autistic and I was just going on a 'hike with golf', please take the tee." Answer: "I know he is Autistic, that is why I WANT to play with you..."
Fabulous place, and hopefully the Golf ranking does not ruin it.


Mike,


Maybe your best post ever. But, I am biased, of course. I will never forget......”I’m gonna have to give you some tough love”.



Tim Weiman

Bill Seitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 01:04:43 AM »
I probably wouldn't take a business associate to Santa Anita, but mostly because it's usually in questionable shape and it takes a long time to play.  Also, there are few courses where you will see as many open umbrellas on a perfectly sunny day.  I've also played it a gazillion times, so I'd probably rather play somewhere else.


Is Purgatory that terrible from the right set of tees?  I've played it once from the tips, because why not?  It's stupid long, emphasis on stupid, but it didn't seem like a great or awful course if you played it at the proper length.  It's been a long time though. 

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2019, 01:07:47 AM »
The old "Ocean Trails" which is now Trump National LA in Palos Verdes, CA.  I played it maybe 10x's when it was OT as I had a friend there who was a UCLA football fan and I could give him tickets for golf. :) The barter system was alive and well then.


Anyway took another coach with me one day there and there were only 15 holes open IIRC, we were going to play all day like 45 or so holes.  At 8/9 holes in he was borrowing balls from me, then he stopped after 12 holes and said, "I'm not playing anymore, this course is just too hard for me." It was a beautiful setting and complimentary while playing with a friend, but that mattered naught and he had reached his breaking point.  To the parking lot he went and I played as a single for another maybe loop and left myself.  For those that had played it before the renovation to Trump, it was a very tight repetitive slug, not sure if they changed much as I haven't played the Trump version. Great views, but very tight and barranca/bushes everywhere off the fairway.

Good times.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Ryan Carey

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2019, 02:05:45 AM »
Great post, and something I hadn’t necessarily thought about in this way.


The Pasatiempo one hit home a bit, as I once insisted my group of casual golfer friends (my wife’s friends actually) leave the Pebble Beach resort to play Pasatiempo.


I was having the time of my life, while they were badmouthing the poor facilities and wondering why there was a trench in the middle of a fairway

Bill Seitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2019, 02:13:30 AM »
The old "Ocean Trails" which is now Trump National LA in Palos Verdes, CA.  I played it maybe 10x's when it was OT as I had a friend there who was a UCLA football fan and I could give him tickets for golf. :) The barter system was alive and well then.


Two things you'd likely have to pay me to do: 1) Play Trump National LA, and; 2) attend a UCLA football game in person.  And I say that as a lifelong die hard Bruins fan that grew up 15 minutes from the Rose Bowl (grandparents used to live about a mile or two away on Arroyo Blvd).  I can't figure out which prospect is less appealing.

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2019, 02:29:22 AM »
The old "Ocean Trails" which is now Trump National LA in Palos Verdes, CA.  I played it maybe 10x's when it was OT as I had a friend there who was a UCLA football fan and I could give him tickets for golf. :) The barter system was alive and well then.


Two things you'd likely have to pay me to do: 1) Play Trump National LA, and; 2) attend a UCLA football game in person.  And I say that as a lifelong die hard Bruins fan that grew up 15 minutes from the Rose Bowl (grandparents used to live about a mile or two away on Arroyo Blvd).  I can't figure out which prospect is less appealing.
The former I would agree with, the latter is challenge I know with how Chip Kelly has underwhelmed.  I was there during the Cade McNown era and we had good teams, came within a fumble away from going to the very first BCS game in 98. Of course we didn't have the talent in subsequent years as Bob Toledo wasn't a great recruiter, but the Rose Bowl was such a great atmosphere then. We started the walk from the buses to the locker room during that time and the players/fans loved it. I was just back this summer for the first time in probably 15 plus years and they have upgraded their facilities quite a bit and it was needed. Good memories for me, but times change and with a great campus and university academically they should always be in the top 25 at the very least. Coach Donohue was the consummate coach there.  Always good and occasionally great teams.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2019, 05:16:40 AM »
There are many quirky, rural and rustic courses enthused about herein that others wouldn’t touch with a barge pole. Fortunate in many ways I guess, more space for those who enthuse and like playing them.
Atb

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2019, 08:52:36 AM »
It wasnt that long ago that Palmetto and Southampton were on that list and you wouldnt think of taking that same acquaintance to Aiken GC.


My current list includes Goat Hill , Shennecossett and Dunfanaghy(replacing the NLE Otway)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Buck Wolter

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2019, 10:58:27 AM »

I'll add the last course I played -- Honey Creek in Boone IA.


On the same river bluff as Ledges State Park -- some quirk on the front and then on 11 you descend into the valley and things get weird.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2019, 11:06:21 AM »
I have many golfing friends who would never take me seriously again if I sent them to Welshpool, Kington, or Painswick!  ;D

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: 10 Courses That Could Ruin a Friendship
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2019, 12:01:51 PM »
Glen Echo on the list intrigues me -- I have always thought of it as under-appreciated mainly due to its location but not necessarily polarizing. You might put the entire St Louis Metro area on the list.


Good selection. A lot of people don't like the lack of flat lies - most holes are uphill, side hill and some downhill. But its laid out almost exactly how it was in 1901 where Foulis put tees and green on the top of hills and the let fairways fall where they may. Every time I play it I like it more.


The club is going through a bit of renaissance. It lost a lot of members due to its location, but its getting a lot of younger players now who like to walk, rarely wait to play, and appreciate its golf only focus. If only it allowed dogs, it could be a very "woke" golf club model