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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« on: November 25, 2019, 11:05:51 AM »
I grew up enjoying reading the Top 100 lists and never thought more about it other than wondering how many I had played. I gradually started to wonder why one course was on the list and one I preferred was not...but I never sweated it too much. Today, I enjoy the lists as much as ever but certainly don't spend much time thinking directly about them.


Once I joined this group about 15 years ago, I came to realize there was a cottage business of being a rater. This is not to diminish what raters actually do because I love golf but could not fulfill those obligations if I wanted to...but each year when a magazine would release its ratings, two or three weeks of this website were devoted to fighting over the results as though there were a factual answer underlying any of it.


Once a consensus is sought in an attempt to lend objectivity to a purely subjective topic, there's no way out.


JC Jones current gripe about the new GD panel structure negatively affect his life as a legacy GD panelist is the ultimate in myopic hubris in these Course Ranking threads.


I suggested about 10 years ago that I would much rather read an individual's list of favorites than a watered down list aggregating 100 (or 1,000) opinions. Certainly the value of being able to see all (or most) of the potential courses is the one strength of the larger group.


If you told me Ben Crenshaw would publish his Top 100 with some commentary, I would have something tangible (someone actually) to agree or disagree with.


Tom Doak has done his list and chose not to itemize specifically. There would be dozens, if not hundreds of people capable of providing a quality list, that have the depth to support it. Ran has done his 147 Custodians but clearly says these are not his Best 147. I'm not sure if this Golf Mag list will evolve into Ran's Top 100...but under the panel construct it's still not a single source claiming ownership.


Mark me down as wishing there were a vehicle to provide true insight to well traveled golfers preferences whether at the state, national or international level.


Peter Pallotta

Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2019, 12:31:10 PM »
I would too, Jim.
My only concern is that Ben might find it hard to let his hair down and just tell me what he himself likes/enjoys best - i.e. that he'd feel a responsibility both to the art & craft of gca in general (to honour what is truly 'great' beyond his personal preferences), as well as to his fellow practitioners (given that he knows both the realities of the business end and the site challenges architects have/had to deal with in any given case).
I'd also pay for *your* Top 100 list -- i.e. that of a very good player who appreciates/understands good architecture in and of itself, but especially in the context of a specific and consistent goal -- to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible.
I guess my ideal might be someone in the middle, e.g. someone like Rocco Mediate.
A very fine golfer who doesn't feel responsible for anything beyond being a decent person and making a good living. He'd be best, I think.
I saw him on a 'Secrets in the Dirt' episode: he and Elkington and a friend were playing a practice round at Fox Chapel. At point, strolling down the fairway and chatting about great courses and architects, they have an exchange that went something like this:
R: I want to get out to Oregon.
E: What's that, what's there?
R: The Bandon courses, I hear they're great.
F: Oh, they are great - yeah, I was there.
R: Well, they have that architect out there who's really good. What's his name...
E:  You mean Crenshaw?
R: No, the other guy -- Doak.
E: Oh, that guy. Tom Doak. 
R: Tom Doak. People say he's excellent. Great courses.
F: Yeah, he is excellent. They're fantastic courses out there.
E: Yeah?
F: Oh yeah.   
   
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 12:33:53 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2019, 12:39:08 PM »

My only concern is that Ben might find it hard to let his hair down and just tell me what he himself likes/enjoys best - i.e. that he'd feel a responsibility both to the art & craft of gca in general (to honour what is truly 'great' beyond his personal preferences), as well as to his fellow practitioners (given that he knows both the realities of the business end and the site challenges architects have/had to deal with in any given case).

Peter this is very true....... here is a Q/A interview of him with that very question. 

https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/ben-crenshaw-interview-masters-ryder-cup-golf-course-design-and-his-favorite-courses

What course is highly rated that you just can't seem to appreciate?
I don't know. Charlie Macdonald, in Scotland's Gift: Golf, said, "Criticism of a golf course is like going into a man's family." That book is one of my favorites; it has long passages on how the USGA was formed, what fights they had, and [sections] on architecture, as well. What I'm saying is, I don't want to be critical.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2019, 12:43:03 PM »
Back when I was in charge of the GOLF Magazine rankings, I managed to get a bunch of people to fill out ballots - some even on the condition that we wouldn't use their name [because they were on the GOLF DIGEST panel].  I pretty much asked everyone whose ballot I would be interested to see.


So, I've still got old ballots from Crenshaw, Ballesteros, and Peter Dobereiner, among others.  But they only sent them to me because they knew I wouldn't ever make them public, so . . . sorry!


I've also got a nice letter from Ben Hogan telling me he "could not possibly do such a thing".

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2019, 12:46:57 PM »

I would as well--Crenshaw seems to know and love the subject and would be able to speak from the perspective of both elite player and architect. Plus, I'm a former Longhorn.


To what I'm guessing is your larger point, I agree finding a single "rater" of anything, where you have an understanding of where he's coming from, is more beneficial than a nameless group.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 12:50:27 PM »
Also to Ben's credit the interviewer tried to get him to compete with Tom Doak.  Classy responses to two baiting questions:
Tom Doak built the Blue course at Streamsong at the same time that you built the Red course. Deep down, did you want your course to turn out just a little bit better?
We compete with nature. We're constantly in a match, I suppose, with her. You make a wrong move and it doesn't look natural. That's when you have to tone it down and do something different. I love [working on] courses that look like they were set in nature, and being able to bring the geographical features out. Perry Maxwell said, "A golf course must be there, not brought there." I love that.
But didn't you want your course to be better than Doak's?
We had fun working with each other. All our workers would gather at lunch and throw around ideas and talk about the business. We were peering over the hill to see what they were doing, and they were looking at what we were doing. It was fun. We share a philosophy with them. It was slightly a contest, but we were trying to put the two pieces of ground together in the best way we could. It was a unique situation with undulating land in Florida, beautiful sand, vegetation, and some beautiful water that was man-made.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2019, 01:02:24 PM »

Tom Doak has done his list and chose not to itemize specifically.



I think I did do an itemized list here once, for at least my top 25 or 50.  But if you asked me to do it again today, without looking back, I'm sure they would be in a different order, because the difference between 18th and 21st is meaningless.  Ironically, that's why I suggested to George Peper that we rank the courses 1-100, instead of in groups of ten, but I never anticipated that it would have the opposite effect.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2019, 01:11:11 PM »
Also to Ben's credit the interviewer tried to get him to compete with Tom Doak.  Classy responses to two baiting questions:


I looked for the byline, to see who was baiting him to say something about me, but there isn't one in the online version.  Whoever it was must not work there anymore.


I haven't seen Ben for a while now, but we have been friends since 1981, and he has always treated me like my older cousins do, like family.  I'm still amazed that he knows so many people, and manages to make time for them all.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2019, 01:16:51 PM »
Also to Ben's credit the interviewer tried to get him to compete with Tom Doak.  Classy responses to two baiting questions:


I looked for the byline, to see who was baiting him to say something about me, but there isn't one in the online version.  Whoever it was must not work there anymore.


I haven't seen Ben for a while now, but we have been friends since 1981, and he has always treated me like my older cousins do, like family.  I'm still amazed that he knows so many people, and manages to make time for them all.
I did to as it was in 2013 and now removed for a reason, and I'm not surprised with ass hat questions like that. Class is hard to define, but you know it when you see it is what I think of Mr. Crenshaw.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2019, 01:36:42 PM »
Interesting Tom, that those people would want their opinions help private on a subject like this.


Sure, there would be friendly questions to answer and maybe that's enough to want to avoid it.


In truth, and Jeff Evensky sniffed it out.


I think the people would need credibility but not necessarily fame for their golf or design accomplishments. Eliminating them would certainly shorten the list of eligible candidates.


I said on a thread once that I'd rather read Matt Ward's list of Top 20 in The Badlands as opposed to a collective average. He liked that idea.


What would you rather read if you're traveling through Pennsylvania, the stock Top 20 that has Huntsville as #4 or #5? Or Mike Cirba and Joe Bausch charting their way from the Philly greats up to NE PA unknowns and out to the West Penn hills and standing behind their opinions as exactly that...an unvarnished, highly educated opinion!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2019, 05:19:56 PM »
Interesting Tom, that those people would want their opinions help private on a subject like this.


Sure, there would be friendly questions to answer and maybe that's enough to want to avoid it.


In truth, and Jeff Evensky sniffed it out.


I think the people would need credibility but not necessarily fame for their golf or design accomplishments. Eliminating them would certainly shorten the list of eligible candidates.


I said on a thread once that I'd rather read Matt Ward's list of Top 20 in The Badlands as opposed to a collective average. He liked that idea.


What would you rather read if you're traveling through Pennsylvania, the stock Top 20 that has Huntsville as #4 or #5? Or Mike Cirba and Joe Bausch charting their way from the Philly greats up to NE PA unknowns and out to the West Penn hills and standing behind their opinions as exactly that...an unvarnished, highly educated opinion!


Jim:


It's usually more interesting to read people's opinions than to read a list . . . though I would be selective in whose opinions I wanted to read.  No one has ever explained WHY Huntsville should be #4 or #5 in Pennsylvania, and at some point, you just start to assume that the answer is that it really shouldn't be.  ;)


The rankings are just lists, with rarely any thought expressed behind them.  It was nice that Ran gave me a bit of space to write about Pine Valley, but that leaves 99 great courses about which he wrote two or three sentences each, and 50 more that were just listed alphabetically.  It's a magazine, and that's all they have time or space for, which is one reason why magazines are a failing business.




I have seen a couple of magazine rankings [I think one of the Australian magazines did it, and maybe one of the UK ones as well] where they had each panelist list their top 50 or whatever.  Honestly . . . that was not any better.  Just more lists, with no room to talk about whatever the opinions behind them were.  And everyone stuck too close to the consensus view.




In the end, though, it gets down to everyone having different reasons for doing these lists to begin with.
 
All of us architects want the rankings to be done well, so that if we do good work, it will be recognized as such . . . but we also know how much bias there is in the process.
 
Ran claims in his article accompanying the list that rankings stir discussion . . . except that he can not come on here to discuss any of the results, because now he [like Ron Whitten] has to stand behind the results of the consensus, instead of pointing out the flaws with it.


The publishers and editors want their ranking to be accepted as the gold standard, because it benefits them . . . but that same imperative encourages them to stymie real discussion.


And the members and course owners just want their own five minutes of fame.


The only thing we all share in common is that everyone seems afraid what might happen if the facade is pulled away.  It's too bad there is no blind taste testing for golf course architecture.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2019, 05:37:47 PM »
Tom D., thanks for taking the time to type that.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2019, 07:04:57 PM »
If Ran wants to do this site a real square, Toms last post needs to be posted as a popup disclaimer on every. single. last. rating. thread..

And you can't read the thread or post without confirming you've read it, like a T&C on other sites...

« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 07:06:37 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2019, 02:07:00 AM »
I have seen a couple of magazine rankings [I think one of the Australian magazines did it, and maybe one of the UK ones as well] where they had each panelist list their top 50 or whatever.  Honestly . . . that was not any better.  Just more lists, with no room to talk about whatever the opinions behind them were.  And everyone stuck too close to the consensus view.

Tom

I dont agree with you on that.

Publishing a panellists list provides greater transparency IMO. Even if it's one's Top50 - I for one would love to see how each panellist ranks various courses. It would also show one's bias which the Golf Australia list did for a particular architect a few years back.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 03:10:55 AM »
I'd like to see Ben's list as well as Bill's
It's all about the golf!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 09:32:50 AM »

Publishing a panellists list provides greater transparency IMO. Even if it's one's Top50 - I for one would love to see how each panellist ranks various courses. It would also show one's bias which the Golf Australia list did for a particular architect a few years back.


Well, for transparency, yes.  But for 99% of readers that gets lost in a sea of lists that just make the overall ranking seem arbitrary.


I suggested to Ran that he tell panelists their votes were fair game for discussion and if they made a real outlier (ie Cypress Point not in the top 100, or Himalayan Golf Club in) they should be prepared to defend it on the record.  But of course there is rarely the space or time for that.


Listening to people's arguments about why a course is overrated can be extremely clarifying - they will either make a good point about the course along the way, or a bad point about their own biases.  JC Jones' example yesterday of the guy who thought Cypress Point was most overrated was perfect for that:  it boiled down to having a bad 18th hole, but then "the two par-5's on the front are also weak."  No, sir, it's your argument that's weak.


EDITED TO ADD:  The panelist who dissed Cypress Point was fully quoted in an online discussion on golf.com today.  He's an Oakmont member.   :D
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 03:55:08 PM by Tom_Doak »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2019, 11:38:27 AM »
Personally, I’d not be as interested in seeing a panelists list that contributed to an aggregated list as I would be in seeing any individual list that included decent commentary throughout...not necessarily every course, but a healthy number.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2019, 04:54:56 PM »
Ben Crenshaw would not know me if he saw me, but we did have an interesting conversation at his club more than 10 years ago about this subject (he does know of gca.com and Tommy Naccarato who had asked me to tell Ben that he was his favorite Republican- Ben laughed and asked how Tommy was doing).


I asked Ben if he would consider answering a few questions about golf architecture and how C & C approaches its work for this site.  In his typically nice, polite way, he declined, citing that the subject matter was highly subjective and insinuating that his preferences were likely to be different and no better than those of many.  He really wasn't blowing me off as we probably talked for the better part of a half an hour about various things.  I did sense that he sought to avoid conflict, and perhaps that he is more comfortable in the background.


I suspect that his list would include courses which resemble those he and Bill Coore have designed.  He is a big fan of Royal Dornoch.  His Sand Hills suggests to me that he might prefer a Shinnecock to an NGLA, maybe a Chicago GC to a Shoreacres, but that's just speculation.  Maybe he'll leave a Confidential Guide of his own to be published posthumously (wouldn't bet on it).


   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2019, 05:34:14 PM »

I suspect that his list would include courses which resemble those he and Bill Coore have designed.  He is a big fan of Royal Dornoch.  His Sand Hills suggests to me that he might prefer a Shinnecock to an NGLA, maybe a Chicago GC to a Shoreacres, but that's just speculation.  Maybe he'll leave a Confidential Guide of his own to be published posthumously (wouldn't bet on it).



I wouldn't bet on that, either.


I can volunteer that when I first wrote to Ben in 1979 and asked him which courses I should try and go see, he listed six - and I don't remember which order, so I will do them geographically:


Shinnecock Hills
National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Merion
Cypress Point
and Prairie Dunes, which he listed last, and said he felt was overlooked by people


At least I'm not speculating on that much!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2019, 09:47:11 PM »
Maybe I should have said Timmy Naccaratto...or David Eger...


I suspect there are easily a few hundred people in the world whose list and commentary would carry a great deal of interest and drive conversation.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2019, 06:54:52 AM »
I recall talking to a European tour pro about the courses pro events are held on. His take was along the lines of "when I was an amateur the top amateur events I played in were played on the best courses, classic courses. Now I'm a pro I mostly play on .... courses". Just saying.
atb

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'd Pay to Read Ben Crenshaw's Top 100 List!
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2019, 10:30:20 AM »
I can confirm that...and have even included that in my advice to other young guys thinking about giving it a go...

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