[Bill Gayne]

I don't know if he's the best but no question in my mind he's on the Mount Rushmore of GCAs.

[Tim_Weiman]

there is a community of people who have interacted me for long enough to know that the accepted characterization of me as "difficult" is arguably wrong, or at least incomplete.  But, hell, MacKenzie and Macdonald and Pete Dye were all considered "difficult", too, so at least a part of me knows it can be a badge of honor.

Difficult or not, I’ve never had any other architect offer to meet up with me in another country and spend several hours walking me around a course he was developing. If that’s considered being “difficult,” we need more difficult people in this world.


My two cents ...

Dan,


Tom is not “difficult”. Certainly not in my experience.

[Dan_Callahan]

Tom is not “difficult”. Certainly not in my experience.

No, that's my point. He spent a couple of hours at St. Patrick's showing me around. It was incredibly generous of him and the opposite of "difficult."

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom is not “difficult”. Certainly not in my experience.

No, that's my point. He spent a couple of hours at St. Patrick's showing me around. It was incredibly generous of him and the opposite of "difficult."

Dan,


I have had that experience with Tom several times. Hard to say which was the most memorable, but maybe it was at Sebonack. Tom wasn’t just generous with his time. He was very open with me about the unique experience of working that project.


When we got to the #18th tee, I decided the right thing to do as a friend was just forget all that Tom had shared.

[Jeff Schley]

If Colt had actually traveled to Japan, as I believe he originally was supposed to, and not Alison he would have all the Japanese designs to his name as well. Certainly these are significant in the career of Alison and had those been done by Colt we could have 5 more iconic designs to his name.

[Thomas Dai]

Tom,
Make no mistake I do take your "The thing that matters is what he built where he worked" point.
To move on here though, one of the great aspects of GCA and this Discussion Board in particular is the ability to converse with experts and leading lights in various areas of the great game we all love and your contribution both online (and in person) is hugely appreciated in educating participants in architecture and related matters.
Sometimes however, disagreements of various magnitudes occur, sometimes through misunderstandings, often the sort of disagreement that face to face would pass with an amusing exchange and some smiles or even laughter. Unfortunately such can't happen online when folks are thousands of miles apart and written words often appear harsher than they are intended.
And just for the record I have a huge appreciation for the work that Colt and MacKenzie (and numerous others) did on the ground and on paper and the effort that others have latterly done in documenting and recording it and attempting to explain it to others.
atb

[Ben Stephens]

Wish Paul Turner was still on this forum - he is a well respected expert on Colt.


Not sure whether Colt is the greatest of all time he is certainly one of them. Some may say Mackenzie was and others Pete Dye for revolutionising golf course design in the second half of the 20th C. It's the same saying who is the greatest architect ever?


Every designer has its strength and weaknesses. You wonder what Colt would have done on the Sandbelt and what would Seth Raynor have done to Cypress Point rather than Mackenzie.


Which courses did Colt work on all the way through and which he left to his chosen contractors to carry out? which one is really a pure Colt course. I had thought Colt heavily worked at Luffenham however Paul Turner disputed this and said most of the work was done by John White a then pro at Sunningdale and one of Colt's Lieutenants also an Open Champion (correct me if I am wrong)


Cheers
Ben

[Niall C]

Adam,


I think you might be right about Colt being the greatest although like Tom D I'm not sure it is that worthwhile worrying whether he is the best or one of the best. Where I diverge from you is the idea that he invented or pioneered the plateau green, and also that he was the first man to make a living out of being an architect. If you want to see plateau greens in abundance then have a look at TOC which I believe pre-dates Colt by a few years.

Niall

Don't be a buffoon Niall and consider the word 'typically'

Adam


I have every right to be a buffoon, it's still a free country. I've also considered the word "typically" which in some dictionaries means "in most cases" or "usually". I still think you are wrong. By the time Colt got into full swing courses were well by the phase of greens being "typically" of the dew drop/hollow variety. I've also considered the word "pioneering" and you are wrong with that one as well for the same reason. 


I still think Colt has probably the strongest claim of any architect to be called the greatest but it is for the quality of his work, and not because he did certain things first (or not as the case may be).


Niall

[Niall C]

Orrrr, maybe one reason Dr Mac hit the road was because Colt was kicking his ass in the UK One thing which is very hard to do when discussing history is to fully comprehend and appreciate what these folks had seen leading up to momentous decisions and actions.

Indeed, there was less competition in Australia, and in California.


However a big part of MacKenzie's decision to go overseas must have been his acrimonious divorce, which made him persona non grata at Alwoodley, which had been his home base for twenty years.  I have never cared to dig very deeply into that, as it has nothing to do with his design work . . . but it must have been pretty bad, since when I visited there in the fall of 1982 the club were still disowning him.

I've got to think Braid was the biggest competitor to any of these guys. There might have been personal reasons for MacKenzie to go but I tend to think the strongest reason was he got a great offer that suited his circumstances at the time, both in a business sense and probably on a personal level.


Niall

[Anthony Gholz]

Ben: 


I can only speak to what Colt did in North America, but I don't think he did any "all the way thru" if you mean from design thru construction to opening day.  The 9 days he spent at Old Elm or similar times at Ancaster, Hamilton, and The CC of Detroit are the max on one visit.  Most of the courses he never saw beyond the raw land.  As mentioned before The CCD is the one course where he got to see the original 1911 product completed in 1914, (if not also in 1913).  Because of the 1915 US AM and the egos of the members involved he got a chance to come back, revise, add yardage (horrors!), and tweak bunkering.  Albeit the last with the on-site return of Ross to confirm.


That golf course no longer exists as it was entirely wiped out in 1927 when the City decided to run a 100' ROW thru the course.  The club bought contiguous property to the south and Alison did a new design that was/is more of a multi directional course than Colt's out and back east west loop.  That golf course has perhaps the longest continuous supervision by a design team as Alison came back to Detroit thru 1929-31.  His right hand, on-site supervisor for construction,, and CA&M American Partner Lynn Edward Lavis stayed on at The CCD as property manager thru the early 1950s.  It wasn't until Trent Jones came in an changed things for the club's second major that the CM&A influence wasn't on-site daily.  Lavis and his family actually lived in the 3rd floor of the clubhouse year around, so on-site takes on an entirely new dimension when you consider that.


Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

That golf course has perhaps the longest continuous supervision by a design team as Alison came back to Detroit thru 1929-31.  His right hand, on-site supervisor for construction,, and CA&M American Partner Lynn Edward Lavis stayed on at The CCD as property manager thru the early 1950s.  It wasn't until Trent Jones came in an changed things for the club's second major that the CM&A influence wasn't on-site daily.  Lavis and his family actually lived in the 3rd floor of the clubhouse year around, so on-site takes on an entirely new dimension when you consider that.

Interesting - I have never heard Lavis' name before, even though we have done considerable consulting work at the Country Club of Detroit.


But also, not a record.  S.V. Hotchkin got involved with Woodhall Spa in 1926, and his son was still there to manage it for the next 75 years.  I won't say with any certainty that's the record, either, but it will take some beating.

[Anthony Gholz]

Tom: 


I did preface by saying in NA as that's all I really know about. 


Lavis was a Landscape Architect graduate of Syracuse in 1916.  After a short stint working for an LA in Cooperstown, he started with Alison as the on-site guy (2 1/2 years) for Timber Point in 1923.  He was involved in most of the NY and Detroit area work from then on.  Orchard Lake was another project as he spent almost the entire summer of 1926 and early 1927 on-site.  This after Alison had already spent (at least) 60 days on-site in 1925-26 laying out the course. 


Lavis was the last to touch Port Huron's 1920-21 Alison design.  He and Alison came back several times thru the 1920s, the last time in October 1928 to do "... some bunkering."  Lavis ended up relocating three greens that were holdovers from the original 1912 9-hole Bendelow course.  There was a budget and, after the initial opening in 1922, there were minor revisions by C&A in the next few years.  They always had a list of things to do.  Happily the Green's Chair remained the same throughout the '20s as the club contact for the firm.


BTW Lavis was on the C&A and CA&M letterhead as "American Partner."  often their ads showed "American Branch Capt. C.H. Alison & L.E. Lavis" on the same line.


Anthony

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