How important is the backdrop?

[Dan_Callahan]

Years ago, I was writing a story for a golf magazine about the Orchards Golf Club in South Hadley Mass. It's a fantastic Donald Ross layout that is owned by Mt. Holyoke College. It fell into pretty serious disrepair, but went through a huge renovation prior to hosting the Women's US Open.

Anyway, I was playing the course with a member and one of the pros, and midway through the round, as we approached a green that seemed to tie seamlessly into the land, they asked me if I noticed anything peculiar about its aesthetics. I didn't. Just thought it looked great.

The pro said, "No one who has ever played the course noticed anything unique about the greens ... and then Ben Crenshaw walked the property a few years back. And after seeing a few holes, he remarked that Donald Ross was very clever with the mounding around the greens. He was asked what he meant, and he was surprised no one had noticed. The mounding behind the greens mirrored perfectly the hills and mountains of the Berkshires in the background."

Once you noticed it, you couldn't miss it. It was that obvious. But without knowing about it, you had a sense that the surrounds felt totally in place without really understanding why.

I don't know how much of that story is true and how much is course mythology, but I sure hope it's true.

[Tom_Doak]

I’m glad Melbourne has its own issues.

If you watch the Presidents Cup, watch for players waving flies away from their face before a shot. 


I would say it was a huge advantage for the locals, except only 2-3 guys on the International team are used to the flies, either.


Adding:  but maybe they carpet bomb the place with insecticide before a big event like that.  I know nothing about stuff like that.

[Mark_Fine]

The debate about the importance of the backdrops and course setting will never end. No one here has the right answer because there isn’t one. I will venture to say that the biggest reason for disparity in the rankings is backdrops and settings.  Unlike many other sports, the physical field in golf is always unique. There are no two golf courses that are the same in the world.  Football can’t say that. Tennis can’t say that.  Or can they?  Most here would agree a football field in some local park is a little different than the one at The Rose Bowl.  The neighborhood tennis court is different than one at Center Court at Wimbledon.  But why?  In both cases they are just football fields and tennis courts.  Same dimensions, possibly even the same playing surfaces.  The difference obviously is the setting and what surrounds the actual playing surfaces.  The same goes for golf.  We have all talked about how ordinary the 18th at a Pebble Beach would be if a cornfield ran up the left side of the hole corridor.  In fact it would be an awful boundary hole if that were the case. What is the Doak rating on that hole with and without the current setting?  It is a lot more than 1 point    There are endless other examples but the bottom line is that the setting and backdrops do matter much more than most here will admit. 


One of the magazines that does rankings that most here don’t like at one point tried to tell panelists “only rate what is inside the golf course boundaries and not what is around them.”  That makes sense to all of us and especially to an architect who has little influence in his or her design with what is outside those boundaries.  But the reality is that to review a course in that way is very hard and few can separate the two.  To me Old Head in Ireland is maybe a prime example.  The setting on a scale of 1-10 is a 13!  The design is maybe a 4.  So where does that leave it overall? 


I will state again, the single biggest reason for disparity in course rankings is the weight given by panelists/golfers to backdrops and overall setting. 

[Tom_Doak]

One of the magazines that does rankings that most here don’t like at one point tried to tell panelists “only rate what is inside the golf course boundaries and not what is around them.”  That makes sense to all of us and especially to an architect who has little influence in his or her design with what is outside those boundaries. 

You are not that dumb.


An architect does not control what's outside the boundaries of the course, but he or she DOES control where the holes go, and therefore how the golfer will interact [or not] with what's on the outside.  And it would be foolish not to think about that - a lot - in one's design work.


Note:  That may not be true for courses that are routed through yet-to-be-built housing developments . . . which is why such projects are rarely discussed in these circles. 

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Of course I understand that regarding the routing.  I talked about that with the silly cottonwoods that were planted later at Cherry Hills.  But many times you have what you have and need to deal with it and the routing of the holes won’t help too much with what is outside the boundaries.  I am sure you remember what Shadow Creek looked like when it was first built. Not everyone has an unlimited budgeted that allowed Fazio to literally lower the golf course into the desert floor so you wouldn’t even know you are in a desert. The only thing you could see from inside the course were the distant mountain ranges.  There was also nothing around the course but desert.  Now it is has all been developed.  Thank goodness Fazio did what he did. 


Certainly architects think about the surroundings but not everyone gets sites like Pacific Dunes, Cape Kidnappers,...


Mark

[Marty Bonnar]

We have all seen a zillion golf holes and it really hit me the other day after redoing a par three hole on a course we are renovating that I think turned out fantastic.  The backdrop, however, behind the hole leaves a lot to be desired  

There has been lots of debate on this site about what constitutes “the golf hole”.  Is the backdrop part of the hole or not? Unfortunately I think it is.  I love the par three hole I redesigned but I am not sure I would hang a painting of it behind my office desk.  Would any of you hang a photo of the 10th hole at Pine Valley or the 11th at St. Andrews if there was a Burger King behind it?  Maybe the backdrop is more important than we think!

The backdrop to TOC #11 is an ARMY BASE!:

 
F.

[Mark Pearce]

On another thread, people are raving about a world ranking which has Royal Dornoch 10th.  Take away the setting and it's seriously arguable whether it's in the top 10 in the UK, let alone the world.  That's how important the backdrop is.


I love Dornoch, by the way.  This isn't a post slagging it off.  Just making a valid point.  Before the haters get fired up.

[Mike Nuzzo]

"I think turned out fantastic"
 
What is fantastic about the golf hole?
Share some images of the hole with and without a backdrop or photoshop a mountain or ocean back there.
Cheers

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I need to learn to post photos again. Have not done so in years.  Maybe at some point I can share some before and afters.  Hope all is well.


Mark

[Tim Martin]

Years ago, I was writing a story for a golf magazine about the Orchards Golf Club in South Hadley Mass. It's a fantastic Donald Ross layout that is owned by Mt. Holyoke College. It fell into pretty serious disrepair, but went through a huge renovation prior to hosting the Women's US Open.

Anyway, I was playing the course with a member and one of the pros, and midway through the round, as we approached a green that seemed to tie seamlessly into the land, they asked me if I noticed anything peculiar about its aesthetics. I didn't. Just thought it looked great.

The pro said, "No one who has ever played the course noticed anything unique about the greens ... and then Ben Crenshaw walked the property a few years back. And after seeing a few holes, he remarked that Donald Ross was very clever with the mounding around the greens. He was asked what he meant, and he was surprised no one had noticed. The mounding behind the greens mirrored perfectly the hills and mountains of the Berkshires in the background."

Once you noticed it, you couldn't miss it. It was that obvious. But without knowing about it, you had a sense that the surrounds felt totally in place without really understanding why.

I don't know how much of that story is true and how much is course mythology, but I sure hope it's true.

Dan-The version of the story that I heard regarding the Orchards pertains to the 14th hole and it references the green contours as simulating the Berkshires in the background. I’ve played it a bunch of times and I remember thinking how clever Ross was because it’s a really cool feature. Finally I have to say that 14 is my favorite hole on the inward nine if not the entire golf course with a nod to 4 on the front side.

[MCirba]

The golfer facing the 45 yard par three 4th hole at the Palmer House Golf Course in Manchester, VT is not helped much by the backdrop.

Holy bladed wedge, Batman! 

[Jeff Schley]

OMG.... how long has that been there?  They don't have a net or fence up yet? They are probably just as likely to hit the house as the green. What did your sweet southpaw swing get on that hole?

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure what to make of this?  Worlds Smallest green or just a putt putt course on roids? 

[Joe Bausch]

If you would like to fully immerse yourself in the Palmer House, go here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PalmerHouse/index.html

[MCirba]

OMG.... how long has that been there?  They don't have a net or fence up yet? They are probably just as likely to hit the house as the green. What did your sweet southpaw swing get on that hole?

There are those who see the 17th at TPC Sawgrass, or the approach to The Road Hole as the ultimate in intimidation.   


Those challenges pale in comparison to the white knuckles I had on the 4th at Palmer House, Jeff.

My most likely strategic choices from 45 yards seemed to be the houses, the cars, the streetlight, or strolling pedestrians.   Faced with that dilemma, my "sweet southpaw swing" opted to curtail itself a good 2 inches behind the ball, leading to a 15 yard chunk.

I was faced with the same dilemma on my next shot, only this time from 30 yards.   My psyche is still scarred.

Joe Bausch didn't fare any better, I can assure you. 

[Joe Bausch]

OMG.... how long has that been there?  They don't have a net or fence up yet? They are probably just as likely to hit the house as the green. What did your sweet southpaw swing get on that hole?

There are those who see the 17th at TPC Sawgrass, or the approach to The Road Hole as the ultimate in intimidation.   


Those challenges pale in comparison to the white knuckles I had on the 4th at Palmer House, Jeff.

My most likely strategic choices from 45 yards seemed to be the houses, the cars, the streetlight, or strolling pedestrians.   Faced with that dilemma, my "sweet southpaw swing" opted to curtail itself a good 2 inches behind the ball, leading to a 15 yard chunk.

I was faced with the same dilemma on my next shot, only this time from 30 yards.   My psyche is still scarred.

Joe Bausch didn't fare any better, I can assure you. 

Two people in the whole wide world have now played Palmer House and Ekwanok on the same day!

[MCirba]

I see Joe was kind enough to feature one of my recovery shots on the 4th hole on his Photo tour.   

For a bit more information, the golf course at Palmer House was designed and maintained by Vermont ski legend Wendell Cram.   

[Kalen Braley]

Mike with the mown approach path, looks like putter was the best/safe play right from the start!

P.S.  Is that photo reversed or something, since when did you play from the right side! 

[MCirba]

Mike with the mown approach path, looks like putter was the best/safe play right from the start!

P.S.  Is that photo reversed or something, since when did you play from the right side! 

That is just an optical illusion, Kalen, caused no doubt by the optical twilight zone of that hole.   I'm actually putting back a bit towards the cameraman Joe as my ball rolled down the street a bit. 

It was too wet to use putters from the tee, sadly.   We had to try the aerial game, to our sad mutual demise.

[Joe Bausch]

Many people feel the origin of the phrase "ideal maintenance meld" came from The Lurker on this site.

No, sir!  It was Wendell Cram.

[Kalen Braley]

Awesome gents, I love the little known off-the-beaten-path gems.


would you say this is a candidate for one of the "undiscovered courses" for the GM top 150? 

[MCirba]

Awesome gents, I love the little known off-the-beaten-path gems.


would you say this is a candidate for one of the "undiscovered courses" for the GM top 150? 

Let me just say that Joe likes to maximize our time on golf trips with golf.


We weren't meeting at Ekwanok until 11 and after learning neighboring Equinox doesn't open on Mondays until 9am and seeing we had no "in" to get on Manchester CC, undaunted, Joe somehow found this place which hadn't come up on any of my golf course related Google searches.


It was clearly the find of the trip.  I had a smile on my face the entire round.  Now that's a hidden gem!

[JMEvensky]

Many people feel the origin of the phrase "ideal maintenance meld" came from The Lurker on this site.


No, sir!  It was Wendell Cram.

The Lurker has been made aware of your heresy.

[Joe Bausch]

Many people feel the origin of the phrase "ideal maintenance meld" came from The Lurker on this site.

No, sir!  It was Wendell Cram.

The Lurker has been made aware of your heresy.

Cool.  I hope he calls me soon.  We haven't chatted since a nice gathering a couple of months ago.

[MCirba]

[quote author=JMEvensky link=topic=67767.msg1621172#msg1621172 date=15747123

The Lurker has been made aware of your heresy.



I suspect The Lurker is going to tell Joe to "Cram it!"