[JC Jones]

Based upon the new Golf Magazine world rankings, which I think most here would agree is probably the "best" world ranking to date (even if there is stuff to chew on around the edges), Colt is either lead architect listed or has had a hand in well over 10% of the World 100.


His name is vastly more prolific than any other with Old Tom being a distant second place.


What does that say about Colt?  I've only been on this board 13 years but I have not seen Colt discussed nearly as much as most other architects who are considered great.  (Though I admittedly may have missed it)

[Sean_A]

JC

I don't have any evidence to hand (being as you are a brief  ), but it seems to me Colt gets discussed a lot both in broader terms of his overall impact on design and via his courses. Maybe this new ranking list will give Colt more exposure.

Happy Hockey

[JC Jones]

JC

I don't have any evidence to hand (being as you are a brief  ), but it seems to me Colt gets discussed a lot both in broader terms of his overall impact on design and via his courses. Maybe this new ranking list will give Colt more exposure.

Happy Hockey

I agree he gets discussed a lot, but Im not sure I've seen many arguments of him being the greatest.  At least not as much as i've seen that with Old Tom or MacKenzie or Raynor.

[Brian Finn]

I recall discussing this with Tom Dunne, right around the time he published this piece in Links...

https://www.linksmagazine.com/the_essential_harry_s_colt/

[JC Jones]

I recall discussing this with Tom Dunne, right around the time he published this piece in Links...

https://www.linksmagazine.com/the_essential_harry_s_colt/

Thanks for the link!  Im in esteemed company if Im asking the same questions as Tom Dunne!

[Jeff Schley]

JC I agree that Colt is one of the greatest.  I don't think we need to absolutely clarify who is #1, but there are a few at the top and in this thread I have Colt as on my Mt. Rushmore of GCA's.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66657.msg1592518.html#msg1592518

BTW Sean also has Colt in his top 4, so he is very well respected.

What I said about Colt:

Harry S Colt - There are designers with more iconic courses or volume, but he played a role and influence over many designers and projects.  Probably more of a mentor figure than stand alone golf course designer, with Mackenzie and Alison as partners throughout their careers. Influence on Crump at Pine Valley and Ross and his career.

Edit: add photo

[Pete Lavallee]

Interesting, how exactly did Colt influence Ross?

[Jeff Schley]

Interesting, how exactly did Colt influence Ross?

His work on Old Elm had an influence on Ross. 

[Sean_A]

I think (and could be wrong!) that Colt influenced all archies of his period and after by aggressively placing greens on plateaux.  It doesn't sound like much, but this was a huge change in architecture which helped usher in bling greenside bunkering.

Happy Hockey

[Mike_Clayton]

Maybe he would have been if he'd accepted Royal Melbourne's offer to remake their course - and at the same time done all the extra work MacKenzie took on around Australia.
Instead he gave it to perhaps his biggest rival for the greatest ever.

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe he would have been if he'd accepted Royal Melbourne's offer to remake their course - and at the same time done all the extra work MacKenzie took on around Australia.

Indeed, I have a hard time reconciling someone as the greatest designer ever who didn't want to travel far from home 


He was lucky he worked in the era he did, and not today!


But, like MacKenzie and Macdonald, he did train up a few other great designers to carry the profession forward.  You can't say the same about Tillinghast, or even Ross, really.  I guess maybe Ross just outlasted all of his associates.


I still think it's stupid to rate designers, and was pleased to see that this issue of the rankings did not "count" who had the most courses on the list.  It's the courses that matter.

[SL_Solow]

Calling Adam Lawrence!!

[Jeff Schley]

Calling Adam Lawrence!!

Indeed we need his knowledge. Great article.

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/a-legendary-collaboration-at-chicagos-old-elm-club

[Sean_A]

Maybe he would have been if he'd accepted Royal Melbourne's offer to remake their course - and at the same time done all the extra work MacKenzie took on around Australia.

Indeed, I have a hard time reconciling someone as the greatest designer ever who didn't want to travel far from home 

He was lucky he worked in the era he did, and not today!

Orrrr, maybe one reason Dr Mac hit the road was because Colt was kicking his ass in the UK One thing which is very hard to do when discussing history is to fully comprehend and appreciate what these folks had seen leading up to momentous decisions and actions.

Happy Hockey

[Peter Pallotta]

Judging just from Sean's tours, Colt certainly almost always made a (very good) something out of a (nearly) nothing site.
To borrow from some of the comments on the frank commentary thread, e.g. what Dr Mac was able to do with the very hilly site/elevation changes at Pasatiempo, an important part of discussing Colt's work/how great he was is an understanding of what he had to work with, and what his skills & talents was able to do with that.
Which, as per the frank commentary thread, precludes me from further discussion.
P

 

[Thomas Dai]

There is an appropriateness to this thread opening today, 21st Nov, the anniversary of HSC’s passing.
Here’s a link to Tony’s 2008 In My Opinion piece on him - [size=78%]https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/hs-colt-of-east-hendred-by-tony-muldoon/[/size]
Atb

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes he is

[Adam Lawrence]

Maybe he would have been if he'd accepted Royal Melbourne's offer to remake their course - and at the same time done all the extra work MacKenzie took on around Australia.

Indeed, I have a hard time reconciling someone as the greatest designer ever who didn't want to travel far from home 

Three trips to the US and Canada before World War 1, and his fingerprints all over Europe and he didn't like travelling?

[Anthony Gholz]

Thanks Jeff for bringing in Adam's article.  It was written a few years ago so I hope he would forgive me if I point out a couple items. 


Colt made three trips (1922, 1913, 1914).  OE in 1913.  And OE was not the only course with Colt and Ross together in America.  On the same trip Colt designed nearby Indian Hill (Winnetka) ostensibly with barker.  As pre OE all the drawings were done by Colt.  Ross was "charged with the bunkers" and built the course, again similar to OE.  The Colt drawings I've seen shows all the bunkers designed in detail and even today's aerial will confirm many of those still exist. 


In addition The Country Club of Detroit's first course on their current Grosse Pointe Farms site was designed by Colt and built in 1911 without Ross.  However, on his return trips he renovated it for the 1915 US Amateur.  His "associate" at the time for the renovation was Donald Ross.  As mentioned Colt very rarely saw his American courses built, but one exception was The CCD.  Several news articles of the time refer to Ross coming back a couple times to be sure that the tees and bunkers added for the Amateur were done according to Colt's plan.


In a minor response to Tom, Colt was the older partner in all four CMA&M partnership variations and they all came up against a couple world wars and the Depression.  Traveling the world ws little tougher and when you have Alison and Morrison willing to travel to the farthest points of the world why not stick to Europe?


For my two cents, I consider Colt top ten, but I also add Alison in that group as the American and Japanese work were essentially done on his own. 


Anthony

[Anthony Gholz]

As usual Adam is on top of this!


Clarification "on his own" referred to without Colt.  The Japanese efforts had several hands, but not Colt.

[Adam_Messix]

If you want to see the genius of Colt, check out St. Germain in France.  Except for the last 2 holes the property is dull and Colt crafted a marvelous course making it appear to have movement even when it had none (by piling dirt up and carving a bunker out of it)   The use of triangulation in the routing is impressive and the greens are imaginatively contoured.  Not many architects can create such quality out of dull land, that to me is what separates Colt. 

[JC Jones]

Yes he is

In Tom Dunne's piece (my apologies I've not gotten to the others posted here quite yet), he anchors his position in Colt having extraordinary skills in routing golf courses.  Adam Messix recites the same as a reason to visit St. Germain.  I assume you agree with this, can you give some examples of courses of his where this is notable and why, in the abstract, you might describe him as being great at routing?

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes he is

In Tom Dunne's piece (my apologies I've not gotten to the others posted here quite yet), he anchors his position in Colt having extraordinary skills in routing golf courses.  Adam Messix recites the same as a reason to visit St. Germain.  I assume you agree with this, can you give some examples of courses of his where this is notable and why, in the abstract, you might describe him as being great at routing?

Jason


It seems to me that Tom's position is for Tom to defend. Colt's routing skill is unarguable to anyone who has seen a good number of Colt courses but as with everything routing related it's very difficult to analyse post-facto, especially if you're doing to for someone who has not seen a bunch of his courses. I find it very unusual to walk or play a Colt course and come away thinking you'd seen a bunch of missed opportunities. His known habit of routing by finding par threes first has a number of consequences; first and most obviously his par threes are usually wonderful, but also, because par threes can be routed across tougher ground than other holes (because they don't need a fairway landing zone) it usually means he is able to use the property to best effect (the flip side of this is that he sometimes routed par fives across the quietest land, such as at Southfield in Oxford where he has back to back par fives on the dullest part of the site).


My argument for Colt as the greatest is not based on routing, but on influence. As Sean notes, he essentially created modern golf design by pioneering the plateau green, where previously architects had typically put greens in hollows. He invented golf design as a profession -- he was the first man to make his living from it. He brought high quality golf to the masses -- to this day in the UK if you go to a course you don't know and find it very good, it probably has a Colt heritage. The more I dig into his career, the more important I realise he was in many countries -- Belgium, France, Spain and even the US and Canada -- Harry Vardon said that Colt's CC of Detroit was the best course he played in his 1913 US tour, and Toronto and Hamilton were hugely important in Canada. We know that Stanley Thompson met Colt at the very start of his career; we know that Hugh Wilson was in touch with him and it seems very likely that many of the most important early American figures were his friends. Charles Molteno Murray, the father of South African golf, was a Colt acolyte, and as Neil has said, he was asked to do Royal Melbourne before MacKenzie got the gig. His fingers are in every important pie.

[Niall C]

Adam,


I think you might be right about Colt being the greatest although like Tom D I'm not sure it is that worthwhile worrying whether he is the best or one of the best. Where I diverge from you is the idea that he invented or pioneered the plateau green, and also that he was the first man to make a living out of being an architect. If you want to see plateau greens in abundance then have a look at TOC which I believe pre-dates Colt by a few years. I'd also suggest that others were making a decent living through gca at the same time Colt was still working as a club secretary. What I think you can say is he was likely in the vanguard of amateur players who raised the bar in terms of professionalising golf course design.


That all said, I'm enjoying the chat about what attributes that make his design work so good. I'm not sure I've played nearly enough unmolested Colt's to give an assessment.


Niall

[JC Jones]

Yes he is

In Tom Dunne's piece (my apologies I've not gotten to the others posted here quite yet), he anchors his position in Colt having extraordinary skills in routing golf courses.  Adam Messix recites the same as a reason to visit St. Germain.  I assume you agree with this, can you give some examples of courses of his where this is notable and why, in the abstract, you might describe him as being great at routing?

Jason


It seems to me that Tom's position is for Tom to defend. Colt's routing skill is unarguable to anyone who has seen a good number of Colt courses but as with everything routing related it's very difficult to analyse post-facto, especially if you're doing to for someone who has not seen a bunch of his courses. I find it very unusual to walk or play a Colt course and come away thinking you'd seen a bunch of missed opportunities. His known habit of routing by finding par threes first has a number of consequences; first and most obviously his par threes are usually wonderful, but also, because par threes can be routed across tougher ground than other holes (because they don't need a fairway landing zone) it usually means he is able to use the property to best effect (the flip side of this is that he sometimes routed par fives across the quietest land, such as at Southfield in Oxford where he has back to back par fives on the dullest part of the site).


My argument for Colt as the greatest is not based on routing, but on influence. As Sean notes, he essentially created modern golf design by pioneering the plateau green, where previously architects had typically put greens in hollows. He invented golf design as a profession -- he was the first man to make his living from it. He brought high quality golf to the masses -- to this day in the UK if you go to a course you don't know and find it very good, it probably has a Colt heritage. The more I dig into his career, the more important I realise he was in many countries -- Belgium, France, Spain and even the US and Canada -- Harry Vardon said that Colt's CC of Detroit was the best course he played in his 1913 US tour, and Toronto and Hamilton were hugely important in Canada. We know that Stanley Thompson met Colt at the very start of his career; we know that Hugh Wilson was in touch with him and it seems very likely that many of the most important early American figures were his friends. Charles Molteno Murray, the father of South African golf, was a Colt acolyte, and as Neil has said, he was asked to do Royal Melbourne before MacKenzie got the gig. His fingers are in every important pie.

Fantastic.  Thank you.

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