Brook Hollow GC, Dallas, Restoration Project

[Lou_Duran]

I look pretty good too in a six button double-breasted suit, but perhaps out of place today.  If I was a mover on the project, I would have to be convinced of the architectural merits of geometric shapes and sharp corners (cons: more difficult maintenance, less reflective of natural patterns and perhaps harder to blend in with the surroundings). 


J.C.- I have come to the position that fighting Mother Nature is a losing proposition for most clubs and that grasses more suitable for the local environment should get as much consideration as playability and image.  Champion is my favorite of the main ultra-dwarfs, but my home course has TifEagle and I would rate them easily in the Top 10 in DFW.



I was hoping that with Royal Oaks converting from bent to Champion that other high-end clubs would consider doing so as well, but except for Maridoe and the new PGA courses yet to be built, that has not been the case.  I can certainly understand BH going in their direction and hopefully the cooling/heating underground system will provide superior putting surfaces throughout the year.  My bet is that the trend to Champion and TifEagle will continue at other courses facing different economic and financial realities.


Trinity Forest's greens are a blast, but not highly popular among the locals from what I hear.  Holding everything else equal (c.p.), bent is a superior putting surface and most always easier for chipping and pitching.  I keep hearing noise that an alternative site is being explored for the Nelson, a pity in my opinion if true.

[mike_beene]

Lou: if Brook Hollow went tiff or some other Bermda, would you have to take contour out of multiple greens? Where does that sit with people?

[JC Jones]

I look pretty good too in a six button double-breasted suit, but perhaps out of place today.  If I was a mover on the project, I would have to be convinced of the architectural merits of geometric shapes and sharp corners (cons: more difficult maintenance, less reflective of natural patterns and perhaps harder to blend in with the surroundings). 


J.C.- I have come to the position that fighting Mother Nature is a losing proposition for most clubs and that grasses more suitable for the local environment should get as much consideration as playability and image.  Champion is my favorite of the main ultra-dwarfs, but my home course has TifEagle and I would rate them easily in the Top 10 in DFW.



I was hoping that with Royal Oaks converting from bent to Champion that other high-end clubs would consider doing so as well, but except for Maridoe and the new PGA courses yet to be built, that has not been the case.  I can certainly understand BH going in their direction and hopefully the cooling/heating underground system will provide superior putting surfaces throughout the year.  My bet is that the trend to Champion and TifEagle will continue at other courses facing different economic and financial realities.


Trinity Forest's greens are a blast, but not highly popular among the locals from what I hear.  Holding everything else equal (c.p.), bent is a superior putting surface and most always easier for chipping and pitching.  I keep hearing noise that an alternative site is being explored for the Nelson, a pity in my opinion if true.

I doubt the locals have an issue with the condition or quality of turf when discussing the greens at TF.  Rather, I think they are projecting their frustrations with their inability to putt well.


I will always feel that good bent is better than great Bermuda, I was just giving examples of Bermuda that is so good I don’t care that it’s bermuda anymore.

[Jim Hoak]

The Brook Hollow restoration project is done.  Architect Keith Foster and the construction crews have left—or are leaving.  Now the grass—new Tahoma Bermuda—will grow in before play begins this fall.  Members are unanimously excited with the finished work. 

[mike_beene]

Jim: what did they decide on the sand ? Forgive my ignorance, but is the Tahoma Bermuda fairway grass or greens grass? I had guessed you would go Zozsia(sp) and bent with sub air ? I have not followed the new grasses very well. I love that sandy soil.

[Jim Hoak]

Let me get you the name of the sand used.
Tahoma is a Bermuda used in the fairways and rough.  It is the newest grass from Oklahoma State, and I think this is the first time it has been used for a whole course.  It is a bright emerald green.  Greens are bent with sub-air on all greens.

[Jim Hoak]

On the sand, they ended up with something called Pro Choice--it is from the same manufacturer as Premier White, but a darker shade, less glaring white.  It took several tries to find the right sand to look traditional, but still somewhat more playable.
As you will recall, the goal of the restoration was to restore the Tillinghast feel to the course.  I hope as people play it, they will feel it was achieved.  I think after his work at Philly Cricket and Baltimore Five Farms, and now this, Keith Foster is achieving a reputation for great Tillinghast work.

[Jim Hoak]

When this project was undertaken, the Club had two goals beyond restoring a course for frustrated members—to be regarded once again as the best golf course in DFW and to be seen as the best Tillinghast course not on either coast.  We’ll see what people think.

[Paul Jones]

Jim,


Do you have any pictures to share?  I played the course about 10 years ago and it was already my favorite in Dallas.

[David Wuthrich]

Jim,


Very exciting news!


After seeing the Dallas Morning News rank of courses in Texas, ha ha, I think that you guys should definently challenge for the number one spot after all the work that you have done.


Can't wait to see it firsthand this fall hopefully!

[Steve Lapper]

On the sand, they ended up with something called Pro Choice--it is from the same manufacturer as Premier White, but a darker shade, less glaring white.  It took several tries to find the right sand to look traditional, but still somewhat more playable.
As you will recall, the goal of the restoration was to restore the Tillinghast feel to the course.  I hope as people play it, they will feel it was achieved.  I think after his work at Philly Cricket and Baltimore Five Farms, and now this, Keith Foster is achieving a reputation for great Tillinghast work.

  Jim,


  Having overseen a very successful Tillinghast restoration, it's exciting and quite satisfying. We used Jim Urbina and he did a good job.


   You should also know one of the very first Keith Foster-AWT restoration-renovation jobs was Sands Point GC on the north shore of L.I. There, Keith did a wonderful job bringing that gem back to life. He's undeniable evolved into a Tilly specialist and deservedly so.


   I used to play Brook Hollow a good number of times in the early 1980s, as I had business partners from the DFW area. It's a gem indeed. Congrats and good luck!

[Lou_Duran]

So, David, care to flesh out your "ha ha"?


The BH reopening is highly anticipated.  I've heard from a couple members that it looks fantastic.


A number of years ago we were hosted at a Rangers game by someone who turned out to be a member of one of those clubs rarted ahead of BH.  We were having small talk- I didn't know him at all- but his logoed golf shirt suggested a common interest.  I made a casual comment about how much I enjoyed Dallas National and that set off an unintended, impassioned response.


His club is highly private with a small membership.  The pro and any some of the members I've known over the years will tell you that they don't care about the ratings or, for that matter, what other people think about the club.


The objectives for BH bring to mind the gentleman's response, and I paraphrase: "Sure, DN is the new course in town and it has all the bells and whistles.  But we're going to spend $XX Million to update ours and then we'll see which one is better".  I was expecting an invitation to see the finished work, but it never came (from him).


Might we see a new arms race if indeed BH moves to the head of the class?  All of the top courses in Dallas and Fort Worth have been updated and improved, some more than once in the last decade.


I am a believer in the laws of diminishing returns, but since Keynesian economics on steroids seems to be in the zeitgeist, designers, construction firms and vendors could become reasonable conduits for pumping money into the system.  Other than the members losing the use of their course for up to a year, what is not to like?       

[David Wuthrich]

Lou, I was more referring to others on the 2020 list, not specifically DN.  Sorry for the confusion.

[Lou_Duran]

No confusion or controversy.  I am always curious about what people think about golf courses.  Every once in a while I am reminded of how subjective the evaluation of golf courses is.  For example, I once played with an excellent golfer, a long time rater, and member of several clubs in the U.S. and Scotland.  In discussing some courses between Edinburgh and North Berwick, I asked him what he thought of a course I had played recently and his response was that "it is rubbish".  My thought was, well, it may not be as tournament quality as Muirfield and not as much fun as North Berwick, but "rubbish"?


I try very hard to make a distinction between the club and the course.  There are some courses I like very much that I seldom play because I don't feel comfortable playing as a guest.  And there are some courses where I like the club atmosphere a lot but not the course so much.  I only return when there has been some work done, but seldom has that moved my opinion of the course very much (which might suggest that the routing has a predominant influence on my perception of gca).   

[David Wuthrich]

Lou,
Totally understand.  The DMN list has for years made me shake my head in disbelief.   Everyone is always looking for their tastes!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jim: what did they decide on the sand ? Forgive my ignorance, but is the Tahoma Bermuda fairway grass or greens grass? I had guessed you would go Zozsia(sp) and bent with sub air ? I have not followed the new grasses very well. I love that sandy soil.

I know that they have also installed the hydronics system under the greens just like LACC, Southern Hills, Merion & soon to be Oakland Hills. Augusta has had them for years.


https://subairsystems.com/golf/why-subair-golf/hydronics-temperature-control-systems/

[Jim Hoak]

As to the suggestion of pictures, I have plenty, but . . . .
I have been posting on here for 10+ years, but I am an IT klutz and I have never put a picture on yet.  I read past posts of instructions on how to do it, but I didn't understand the instructions nor the lingo.  If someone can give me a second-grade level set of instructions (or simpler), I will do it.  If it is as complicated as the past posts, I need to pass.

[mike_beene]

I think the view from the clubhouse can really set the tone for a course ( Oakmont, Muirfield). Brook Hollow has that same feel and having the 10th hole right in front is really neat. What a nice par 3. With no road crossings, it is your own little world. It is golf as it should be. My favorite in the area.

[Tim Gallant]

Posting these photos on behalf of Jim Hoak and the club. I believe Jim will give a bit more detail on each of the photos and what we're looking at!

[Jim Hoak]

Thanks to Tim for posting these for a klutz like me!
The top two photos are of #7 and #8--original vs. now.  #7 is a great par 4--still hurt unfortunately even after the restoration by the office building which is off-property.  But still a very good hole.  Notice the squaring of the greens--a Tillinghast trademark, which had been lost over the years. 
The other photos are of the Great Hazard at #15--another Tillinghast feature which has ben restored.
I'll get more photos on (through Tim) as I think they are relevant.
Note the greenness of the grass--the new Tahoma bermuda.
Course should be able to open for play this early fall.

[Trey Kemp]

Looks great Jim, I can't wait to get out and see the finished product.  Congrats to you and the club!

[Tim Gallant]

A few more photos of the par-3 10th. Photos courtesy of Jim Hoak and club:

[Jim Hoak]

This par 3 #10th is a very good hole.  Over the years it had become over-bunkered with giant bunkers on both sides of the Green.  The Tillinghast style was to have one main bunker and then supporting bunkers, which hopefully has been achieved.
Note again the squaring of the Green.

[mike_beene]

I think Hogan talked highly of 7. Love the pictures of 10 and the sand barrens. Hope the day school is gone from the office building. Evidently a few kids learned anatomy the wrong way.

[Tom Fussell]

Love the square greens, very classic!


I played there probably twenty years ago, but don't remember too much about the course.   I do remember one hole which had a great view of the Cowboys old Texas Stadium off in the distance, and of hearing stories from the longtime member I played with of an outing there featuring Arnold Palmer.