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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Colonial
« on: June 12, 2020, 01:58:16 AM »
I haven’t played Colonial. On TV it looks like 1,000 other golf courses, just in way better condition. The fairways appear narrow and uniform in width. It’s a Maxwell so I’m sure the greens are interesting, but they’re not striking on TV. In short, it’s not clear to me what stands out about Colonial beyond its history. Educate me please—or tell me if, in fact, nothing stands out?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 03:33:22 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2020, 09:33:13 AM »
I have not played it either but noticed that the doglegs turn very early, which means you must shape the ball with the driver or hit long irons to find the fairway. I believe it was Ben Hogan who said; “ the straight ball doesn’t work at Colonial”.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2020, 09:41:03 AM »
I've been fortunate enough within the last couple of years to have both played Colonial and played with Tom Lehman. On the link below you can click on his round and follow a play by play of his round. It should make everyone happy to see a 61 yr old shoot 65 driving the ball around 270 yds.

https://www.pgatour.com/leaderboard.html

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2020, 02:21:41 PM »
History and Hogan!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2020, 03:09:46 PM »
Is it the lack of a gallery that makes it boring beyond reason?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2020, 04:56:23 PM »
Is it the lack of a gallery that makes it boring beyond reason?


Barney,


I wondered the same. But i rarely watch thur/fri golf anyways.  Maybe there isn't just enough pressure/suspense yet....

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2020, 06:46:36 PM »
Is Phil getting paid to wear the sunglasses or is he moonlighting after hours with the Texas Highway Patrol? Going for the Walker Texas Ranger look.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2020, 10:00:14 PM »
Is it the lack of a gallery that makes it boring beyond reason?


Barney,


I wondered the same. But i rarely watch thur/fri golf anyways.  Maybe there isn't just enough pressure/suspense yet....


It's tough when the only person available to generate excitement is the announcer.


But does anyone else want to comment on the course??

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2020, 12:21:53 AM »
I like old traditional courses. I like the people at Colonial. My sister had her wedding reception there. My TCU nephew signs his rounds to my club account in Dallas. The place has a great history.
I don't get it. It is a flat Texas River bottom course with a lot less roll in the greens than
I was led to believe. The last version of 13 is a dead end walk right back to the 14 tee. And it feels like the hottest place on earth. Give me Shady Oaks. I am already missing Trinity Forest. Maybe Lou or Greg can give us a feel on how it is so highly considered. Royal Oaks is a similar feel but no one seems to give it any love.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2020, 11:32:17 AM »
Mike,


I think that we've had this discussion before.  The club is outstanding- with the right budget, a fantastic place to host a wedding reception- in nearly every respect: friendly, family-oriented, diverse, all the amenities, incomparable history.


I've played Colonial more times than any other big name course.  I was a roving marshal at the NIT in 1980.  No question that it is a shot-makers course and it certainly plays shorter than its yardage for those with high swing speeds and low spin.  It is a difficult course when it is windy and the rough is high, especially if playing firm.  But that's true of most tournament courses.


As a par 70 with the easiest holes at the start of both nines (1, 2, 10,11), I prefer more variety.  It is probably rated properly in most lists when its history and place in golf and the community are considered.


Re: TF, I am told that it is doing very well and the members are not unhappy with the Nelson heading north.  Playing there this week while our course is being aerated (large tines, pulled cores) greens, fairways, tees, and the encroachment addressed (stripped and sprigged with the pulled cores)- it is going to be a mess for a month.


Re: RO, no comparison to Colonial.  A low-handicap players' course.  Eats my lunch every time.  #13 has to be one of the hardest 4s in the world.


P.S.- please text me your club account #   

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2020, 11:59:06 AM »
No comment on the course itself but some random thoughts from watching the TV coverage -
* no spectators .. more of the course is visible, which is nice
* no grandstands/bleachers .. poor shots are going further offline with no rebounds. Less free drops, rules delays too.
* how far back some of the tees are and what has to be hit over by the pros is apparent (eg one tee is so far back it plays over another green)
* the length of green to next tee walks is noticeable (eg walk back from par-3 over water to next tee)
* amount of irrelevant course/tournament furniture still visible .. eg giant scoreboards
* white coloured tarps around TV towers ... green would be better or even no tarp so there is visibility ‘through’ the tower
* the distance the ball is going and it’s effects on the state of the game .. no comment, merely contempt
Atb




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2020, 12:09:26 PM »
I recall eagerly going to my first Colonial NIT when I moved here in May 1984 from Chicago.  I thought it was a bit disappointing from the architecture POV, having seen, played and worked on many of Chicago's best clubs.  Mostly, a nice old traditional course on flat ground, but hard to overcome the topography and the features were pretty repetitious, i.e. most greens with bunker right, bunker left.  And, unlike most, I didn't even mind the sounds of the rail yards across the creek (with trains being a second love after golf and maybe hockey.....) :)


Actually, we helped them overcome some of the drainage problems caused by flat ground, re-grading most fw from their 0% slope (not kidding) to a maximum of 2%.  (it was in the design brief...."Colonial is a flat course and no excessive contours should be added") I was called on a late Friday night to be there the first thing next morning because one of the members thought a grade in no. 3 fw exceeded 2%.  Turns out one area of it needed to be lowered .1 ft. to comply.  I haven't kept track lately, but for many years after our work the only tournament time lost to weather was the hours it rained, whereas before, every rain put the course out of play for a long time.


I know this latest iteration with Hanse also included some well known local engineers to address moving floodwaters out more quickly, whereas my work was just getting the course to drain the everyday rain.


Like Lou, I think their rankings in the lower end of the top 100 is probably good. I note it dropped from the perennial top spot in the Dallas Morning News rankings years ago, and is now 7, so locals and national rankings agree it isn't as good overall as the newer courses high end clubs in Texas, like DN, Boot Ranch, Whispering Pines and others.  Really, as historic as guys like Bredemus and even Maxwell were, most of the architecture in the south paled to what was going on in NY area, the NE, and even Midwest (with Langford, etc.) All IMHO, of course.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2020, 04:04:29 PM »
Matt, I'll happily defend the architectural merits of Colonial. For a flat course, it's very interesting. The greens are very good, you have to hit a lot of different shots, and although there aren't many steep slopes as Jeff says, the subtle contours are used well.


It's not an especially hard course as evidenced by some of the scores this week, but you would enjoy the interest and the challenge. Most of the greens are slightly elevated, and if you miss in the wrong spot, you'll have a very difficult up and down.


You wouldn't confuse it for Prairie Dunes or Crystal Downs, but there are a few places where you can tell that Maxwell played a role.


As others have noted, it's not in the very upper echelon of architecture, but it's probably fairly rated where it is. If it were in New York, it probably wouldn't be as famous as it is, but that's true of most of the top 200 or so courses in America. The most comparable course I can think of at the moment is Olympia Fields North. They're both classic designs on relatively flat sites but they make very good use of the terrain and natural features of the site.

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2020, 05:00:54 PM »
There is a master plan by Gill Hanse to bring back much of the Maxwell in Colonial and deal with the drainage issues.  Attached is a long video describing the changes (https://youtu.be/yhusWg734eQ ). I don’t know the status of the approval by the members.  I think the major work at Shady Oaks by OCM will create a lot of interest in Colonial “keeping up”.  The tournament is a problem, I believe, because it will be difficult to have it in mid May, renovate the golf course and have enough grow in time for the next year.  Charles Schwab has made a major commitment to the tournament and is moving their corporate HQ from California to Fort Worth in the near future.  I think there is hesitance to slow down the momentum of the tournament.


It’s a good golf course on an average site.  I think the Hanse plans would certainly take it up a notch.  I wish they would go to Bermuda greens with the heat in this area.  The bent just gets so soft this time of year. 

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2020, 09:03:30 PM »
Attached is a long video describing the changes (https://youtu.be/yhusWg734eQ ).


That's very interesting. I have to say, it looks like the course would potentially be easier with most greens being lowered 1-3 feet, wider approach areas, and pinching bunkers removed around a couple of greens. And he suggests changes on 9 and 13, which are a couple of the most recognizable holes to me.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2020, 10:00:25 PM »
Colonial is a really interesting golf course the more you play it.  Modern tour players can hit it far enough to render many of its features obsolete, but not so for the scratch amateurs. 

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2020, 11:47:39 PM »
13 has changed  several times in my memory. First the flood control changes that affected it and 8. Then it seems the hole went a differnt direction and the pond wasn't as big. It bothers me when you play a hole and walk right back to where you were. Messes with my mind. Not sure if they discuss this. Paused video halfway and now starting back.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2020, 06:50:20 AM »
No comment on the course itself but some random thoughts from watching the TV coverage -
* no spectators .. more of the course is visible, which is nice
* no grandstands/bleachers .. poor shots are going further offline with no rebounds. Less free drops, rules delays too.
* how far back some of the tees are and what has to be hit over by the pros is apparent (eg one tee is so far back it plays over another green)
* the length of green to next tee walks is noticeable (eg walk back from par-3 over water to next tee)
* amount of irrelevant course/tournament furniture still visible .. eg giant scoreboards
* white coloured tarps around TV towers ... green would be better or even no tarp so there is visibility ‘through’ the tower
* the distance the ball is going and it’s effects on the state of the game .. no comment, merely contempt
Atb


What tee do you think is so far back it plays over a green?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2020, 08:00:46 AM »
Looks like the 13th was moved to the opposite side of the water hazard (which was just a creek at this point) some time around 1969-70 based on aerials.

By 1979 they had moved it back to the original corridor, which is more or less the same configuration as it is now, except for the water being enlarged into the pond. It also looks like the earlier version of the hole had a green set a little further back from it.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2020, 11:46:10 PM »
Thanks for posting the audio. Worth a listen

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2020, 07:01:06 AM »
No comment on the course itself but some random thoughts from watching the TV coverage -
* no spectators .. more of the course is visible, which is nice
* no grandstands/bleachers .. poor shots are going further offline with no rebounds. Less free drops, rules delays too.
* how far back some of the tees are and what has to be hit over by the pros is apparent (eg one tee is so far back it plays over another green)
* the length of green to next tee walks is noticeable (eg walk back from par-3 over water to next tee)
* amount of irrelevant course/tournament furniture still visible .. eg giant scoreboards
* white coloured tarps around TV towers ... green would be better or even no tarp so there is visibility ‘through’ the tower
* the distance the ball is going and it’s effects on the state of the game .. no comment, merely contempt
Atb
What tee do you think is so far back it plays over a green?
Apologies Anthony, initially missed this.
Looking at the footage again it’s the 10th tee, which seems to be of the long runway variety, and although play isn’t directly over the 18th green it seems to be over the pond adjacent to the greens left side. A case maybe of misleading TV visuals and angles?
Atb

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colonial
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2020, 09:03:08 AM »
No comment on the course itself but some random thoughts from watching the TV coverage -
* no spectators .. more of the course is visible, which is nice
* no grandstands/bleachers .. poor shots are going further offline with no rebounds. Less free drops, rules delays too.
* how far back some of the tees are and what has to be hit over by the pros is apparent (eg one tee is so far back it plays over another green)
* the length of green to next tee walks is noticeable (eg walk back from par-3 over water to next tee)
* amount of irrelevant course/tournament furniture still visible .. eg giant scoreboards
* white coloured tarps around TV towers ... green would be better or even no tarp so there is visibility ‘through’ the tower
* the distance the ball is going and it’s effects on the state of the game .. no comment, merely contempt
Atb
What tee do you think is so far back it plays over a green?
Apologies Anthony, initially missed this.
Looking at the footage again it’s the 10th tee, which seems to be of the long runway variety, and although play isn’t directly over the 18th green it seems to be over the pond adjacent to the greens left side. A case maybe of misleading TV visuals and angles?
Atb



Understand. The green is more to the left than TV shows & it helps that #10 goes to the right. Maybe that's why we had the wall there! :)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Colonial New
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2020, 06:26:09 PM »
I've played Colonial several times and I'm in Jeff's camp--a nice, old, traditional course.  But I happened mostly to prefer those to the modern, tricked-up, local courses that Jeff says are now preferred by some raters. 
If I was being critical, I'd say that there are many holes which are defined too much by trees.  And I'd think that the greens are somewhat bland and pretty ill-defined; hard to believe that there is much of Maxwell left in them, since he was one of the best ever on greens.
But it is still a fine, old course--fun to play, demanding enough for a friendly round, and with great tradition.
Of course, Matt, maybe it depends on what you are looking for when you ask about the quality of the course.  I tend to judge courses on how they play for amateurs who play them on a regular basis.  I don't judge them as tracks to challenge touring pros.  It almost seems to me that we need tournament courses for those guys--and leave the fun, old, traditional courses to those of us who love them for our game.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 11:15:20 PM by Jim Hoak »

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