[Tom_Doak]

TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?

Well, who is going to tell you whether The Old Course is still relevant for the best players in the world?  A bunch of 10-handicap amateurs, your own lying eyes, or a couple of pros?


Brooks Koepka says it's his favorite course in the world - unprompted, and not in front of any media.  Not every pro agrees; Scott Hoch thought it sucked.  But are you going to listen to Nicklaus, Tiger and Koepka, or Scott Hoch?

[jeffwarne]

I always believed that one hallmark of greatness is that a course should be playable for decent handicap players and able to challenge the game's best players. I have to believe this criteria has been stretched to beyond breaking point.

TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?

Happy Hockey

Agreed that it has been stretched, but the solution to increased challenge is incredibly simple but those with the power don't have the incentive or the cajones.
I still think TOC is incredibly relevant for Open contestants, even if the scores are low in relation to par if the weather is docile.
As far as a pro having value as a rater, I'm always confused that high skill is seen as detrimental and mutually exclusive  in evaluating the shots and strategy needed to negotiate a great course, if nothing else to equalize the numerous and often false assumptions made by the unskilled.

[Sean_A]

TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?

Well, who is going to tell you whether The Old Course is still relevant for the best players in the world?  A bunch of 10-handicap amateurs, your own lying eyes, or a couple of pros?

Brooks Koepka says it's his favorite course in the world - unprompted, and not in front of any media.  Not every pro agrees; Scott Hoch thought it sucked.  But are you going to listen to Nicklaus, Tiger and Koepka, or Scott Hoch?

Tom

I am not one to dwell on scores, but it does strike me that very low scores are too easily and too often given up at TOC. The saving grace of TOC is the creativity which can be displayed or encouraged, but even this aspect of the design is crowded out by super spin irons and deep driving. What we actually get now is the course being dumbed down for the punters in a vain effort to challenge pros. Besides, what difference does it make if TOC is the favourite course of any or all touring pros?

When it comes to rankings, I am more interested in what a well representative cross section of golfers (which includes some pros) think about courses. Each voice, if well measured and backed with decent experience, is of value.

Happy Hockey

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of TOC questions.
Do those who’ve played TOC with both prior era equipment (persimmon, blades, balata) and with modern era equipment feel they lost out on an experience when they played it with the modern gear?

Would you like if as a visitor experience there were rental sets of prior era equipment available to hire so you could experience what it was once like to play the course? Not just persimmon/blades/balata but hickory era equipment as well? Emphasise the historic golfing experience more.
Should TOC be played ‘the other way around’ say one day a week?
Atb

[Sean_A]

ATB

My thoughts are that if a guy wants to play TOC with old equipment he will much more than likely have his own. I could see locals having a go with old club rentals just to see what's up.

Having failed in the ROC ballot for next week I do wish the Reverse was played more often than currently.

Happy Hockey

[Garland Bayley]

I always believed that one hallmark of greatness is that a course should be playable for decent handicap players and able to challenge the game's best players. I have to believe this criteria has been stretched to beyond breaking point.

TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?

Happy Hockey

Time to roll back the ball and bring things back in balance. And, of course, i mean an across the board roll back.

[Thomas Dai]

I always believed that one hallmark of greatness is that a course should be playable for decent handicap players and able to challenge the game's best players. I have to believe this criteria has been stretched to beyond breaking point.
TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?
Happy Hockey

Time to roll back the ball and bring things back in balance. And, of course, i mean an across the board roll back.

How about rolling the ball back such that no shot from the current pro back tees on the 18th at TOC can carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd (in still, windless conditions and average temperatures)?
Atb

[Garland Bayley]

Did Old Macdonald make the next 50?

Yes, but the fact that it was ranked lower that Bandon Dunes makes the whole list suspect to me. Old MacDonald is the most memorable course on the property to me. A collection of truly great holes, where the road hole is the weakest hole on the course IMO. How great would TOC be if the road hole was the weakest hole on the course?

Perhaps there are too many good golfers on the panel, thereby causing such an egregious oversight. Where are the well traveled, knowledgeable high handicappers on the panel? Who amongst the panel plays as poorly as Alister MacKenzie did in the prime of his design career? I was going to say Kalen and I want our representatives on the panel until I saw Kalen's misguided post above. Who amongst the panel can call out the skilled golfers for their misguided thoughts about course issues like Alister does in his writings?

[Garland Bayley]

I always believed that one hallmark of greatness is that a course should be playable for decent handicap players and able to challenge the game's best players. I have to believe this criteria has been stretched to beyond breaking point.
TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?
Happy Hockey

Time to roll back the ball and bring things back in balance. And, of course, i mean an across the board roll back.

How about rolling the ball back such that no shot from the current pro back tees on the 18th at TOC can carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd (in still, windless conditions and average temperatures)?
Atb

How about not needing "current pro back tees"?

[Sean_A]

I always believed that one hallmark of greatness is that a course should be playable for decent handicap players and able to challenge the game's best players. I have to believe this criteria has been stretched to beyond breaking point.
TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?
Happy Hockey

Time to roll back the ball and bring things back in balance. And, of course, i mean an across the board roll back.

How about rolling the ball back such that no shot from the current pro back tees on the 18th at TOC can carry Grannie Clark’s Wynd (in still, windless conditions and average temperatures)?
Atb

If bifurcation kick starts a restoration of TOC and achieves nothing else, I am in favour of bifurcation. I am against an across the board roll back in the main because nobody has properly convinced me that a player such as myself, with very limited abilities, won't be adversely effected. However, if I truly thought courses would become shorter, wider and with less harsh rough, I would be all in for a roll back.

Happy Hockey

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside:
Has anyone ever raised the idea of renovating the greens at TOC -- adding more contours (despite the 'increasing green speeds' typical of US based tournaments) and of integrating some newly created/shaped 'surrounds'?
Tees are moved back, bunker are revised etc -- but providing the bulk of and/or newer challenges at the *greens* (at TOC and elsewhere) doesn't get discussed very much, as far as I can tell.
The idea, in short: not flattening greens so that they'll be 'harder' as they can get 'faster', but the complete opposite! TOC can boast that it's once again (after some 150+ years) serving to lead the way, and exemplifying the model for great gca: playable for all but also a test for the very best. 
Is it bad of me to even raise the idea?

[Garland Bayley]

I am against an across the board roll back in the main because nobody has properly convinced me that a player such as myself, with very limited abilities, won't be adversely effected. However, if I truly thought courses would become shorter, wider and with less harsh rough, I would be all in for a roll back.

Happy Hockey

You can take the wider out of your argument, because if the ball is rolled back, courses will become effectively wider.
Courses are already shorter. Just move up a tee. Or, at least move up a tee on select holes.

As far as I can see harsh rough has nothing to do with rolling back the ball, unless you mean it has been used as a defense against the ball going too far now. If so, it would seem that could go by the wayside too.

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,


You're no slouch yourself as a High Capper, so make sure to give yourself proper credit too!   


P.S.  Which post are you referring to?  The one about including top level AMs on the panel?

[Eric LeFante]

Did Old Macdonald make the next 50?

Yes, but the fact that it was ranked lower that Bandon Dunes makes the whole list suspect to me. Old MacDonald is the most memorable course on the property to me. A collection of truly great holes

I agree, I absolutely love Old Mac. Best greens on property.

[Kevin Pallier]

Did Old Macdonald make the next 50?

Yes, but the fact that it was ranked lower that Bandon Dunes makes the whole list suspect to me. Old MacDonald is the most memorable course on the property to me. A collection of truly great holes

I agree, I absolutely love Old Mac. Best greens on property.

I still think Pac Dunes is the best course on the property.

However, I'm with you guys - I cant fathom how the Dunes course keeps making the list. IMO - it's no where near the quality of the other three (nearly four 18 hole courses there).

At least it's ranking is headed south. It's been in the 60's for nearly 15 years!

[Tom_Doak]

Perhaps there are too many good golfers on the panel, thereby causing such an egregious oversight. Where are the well traveled, knowledgeable high handicappers on the panel? Who amongst the panel plays as poorly as Alister MacKenzie did in the prime of his design career? . . .  Who amongst the panel can call out the skilled golfers for their misguided thoughts about course issues like Alister does in his writings?

I'm getting there! 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just an aside:
Has anyone ever raised the idea of renovating the greens at TOC -- adding more contours (despite the 'increasing green speeds' typical of US based tournaments) and of integrating some newly created/shaped 'surrounds'?
Tees are moved back, bunker are revised etc -- but providing the bulk of and/or newer challenges at the *greens* (at TOC and elsewhere) doesn't get discussed very much, as far as I can tell.
The idea, in short: not flattening greens so that they'll be 'harder' as they can get 'faster', but the complete opposite! TOC can boast that it's once again (after some 150+ years) serving to lead the way, and exemplifying the model for great gca: playable for all but also a test for the very best. 
Is it bad of me to even raise the idea?

Only green I know that has been significantly altered in living memory is the 11th by Hawtree. It was softened.


He also reshaped a bunch of green surrounds to give more movement. Personally, I didn’t see the point and it really hasn’t made the course any harder for the top players.


Leave TOC alone. Change the ball / clubs if something needs done.

[Ted Sturges]

Could someone post the link that lists all of the Golf Magazine panelists?


TS

[Kevin Pallier]

I read this overnight from one of the panellists

"Most overrated is Cypress Point. I may get eliminated from the panel for this comment but other than the views, an unbelievable walk and it’s exclusivity, I don’t believe it is worthy of its ranking. How can the second-ranked course in the world have the worst hole in golf as its finishing hole? If someone asks you what is the worst hole at Pine Valley, Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills, Royal Melbourne, Augusta National, Royal Dornoch, etc., then you can’t come up with an answer. That’s why they are voted so well. Also, I don’t believe their par-5s on the front nine are very good. (I would imagine I won’t be invited back again anytime soon.)"

 

[V_Halyard]

TOC is a touchstone for most anything to do with quality golf. While I am entertained by Opens held there I am no longer convinced TOC provides an adequate challenge for Open contestants. IF this is the case, and IF that should mean therefore that being a challenge for pros while remaining playable for decent markers has become too difficult to achieve, what then is the added value a pro golfer brings to the table that warrants a rater diversity imbalance?

[size=78%]Brooks Koepka says it's his favorite course in the world - unprompted, and not in front of any media.  Not every pro agrees; Scott Hoch thought it sucked.  But are you going to listen to Nicklaus, Tiger and Koepka, or Scott Hoch?[/size]

... snorked coffee thru my nose here...

[Michael Moore]

Why is Lofoten Links on the cover and also featured in a two-page spread? The 2021 rankings aren't good enough and we have to turn our attention to 2023 already?

[Philip Hensley]

Could someone post the link that lists all of the Golf Magazine panelists?


TS

https://www.golf.com/top-one-hundred/2019/11/23/meet-golfs-top-100-course-raters/

[JC Jones]

I read this overnight from one of the panellists

"Most overrated is Cypress Point. I may get eliminated from the panel for this comment but other than the views, an unbelievable walk and it’s exclusivity, I don’t believe it is worthy of its ranking. How can the second-ranked course in the world have the worst hole in golf as its finishing hole? If someone asks you what is the worst hole at Pine Valley, Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills, Royal Melbourne, Augusta National, Royal Dornoch, etc., then you can’t come up with an answer. That’s why they are voted so well. Also, I don’t believe their par-5s on the front nine are very good. (I would imagine I won’t be invited back again anytime soon.)"

 

I don't not agree....

[Tom_Doak]

Why is Lofoten Links on the cover and also featured in a two-page spread? The 2021 rankings aren't good enough and we have to turn our attention to 2023 already?

It's there for the same reason that there is an article on The Sheep Ranch attached at the hip to the rankings . . . because they cannot resist telling panelists how they should be thinking about next time.

[Garland Bayley]

I read this overnight from one of the panellists

"Most overrated is Cypress Point. I may get eliminated from the panel for this comment but other than the views, an unbelievable walk and it’s exclusivity, I don’t believe it is worthy of its ranking. How can the second-ranked course in the world have the worst hole in golf as its finishing hole? If someone asks you what is the worst hole at Pine Valley, Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills, Royal Melbourne, Augusta National, Royal Dornoch, etc., then you can’t come up with an answer. That’s why they are voted so well. Also, I don’t believe their par-5s on the front nine are very good. (I would imagine I won’t be invited back again anytime soon.)"

 

Perhaps if you have the best hole in golf, then you are allowed the worst hole in golf (not truly anywhere near the worst hole in golf) without much penalty.

After all, the worst hole in golf has to have in course OB, ice plant, and be located on the coast a little farther north at Pacific Grove.

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