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Scott Warren

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Renaissance Golf Design recently carried out a facelift of Concord GC in Sydney.


I was interested to see how far improved the course could be without any structural change -- all hole corridors remained the same and the only significant change came in the par five 5th being separated into a short four and a long three and then, to balance the number of holes, the par three 7th and par four 8th being combined into a par five.


The old 5th was a slog uphill and around a dogleg, while the 7th was an in-house hole that never fit in, so both changes were welcome.


Concord was always a fairly small and steep piece of land constrained by roads and limited by the clay soil and kikuyu grass, and it is still all of those things. But with some judicious tree removal, smarter bunkering and greens that offer far more fun than the old Ross Watson set, it's also vastly improved and proves those site limitations needn't be a total dealbreaker for interesting and fun golf.


My recollection from a chat with superintendent Chris Howe is that the renovation retained the same number of bunkers, but halved their area, doubled the overall green size and similarly increased the short grass around greens -- with an increased use of couch grass for those aprons to encourage a wider array of recovery shots (and allow the ball to run further away from the putting surface when it misses in the wrong spot).


Tom Doak gets the occasional snide "yeah, but with sites as good as he always gets, how could you not build something world top 100?", so it was really interesting to see how he tackled the kind of property no one is falling over themselves to build on, coupled with the limitations of sticking to an existing routing.


Tree removal was unable to be as significant as some would have liked due to the role trees play separating some cheek-by-jowl playing corridors, but where space allowed, significant amounts were removed to open up views across the course. The long views that OCCM Golf created at Bonnie Doon (another small site 20 minutes away) created a supreme feeling of spaciousness, and the same was achieved here, especially in the corner of the course that houses the 6th and 12th greens and 13th and 14th holes.


The view of those several flags blowing in the breeze in an open parkland has been my lasting visual summary of the renovation.



The ethos of the renovation is evident from the first tee. The corridor on this shortish four used to be a lot tighter and there was no drive interest other than keeping it to the right of the left trees and to the left of the right trees. The fairway bunker in the foreground (I hit a four iron next to it in still conditions) is at just the right distance that it will always play a role in decision-making, while the green tilts just enough front to back to demand precision ballstriking on the approach.



Visual deception is a signature characteristic of the renovated course, and nowhere moreso than at the mid-iron par three 4th. The bunker immediately in front of the green appears to be all carry to reach the putting surface, but in fact it sits a good 20 metres short. Even in the age of laser rangefinders and aerial maps, I find a foreshortening bunker still plants some doubt and discomfort in your mind as you stand over the ball.



The first 300 metres of the old par four 5th is now a short par four, the green tucked behind a nest of bunkers on the dogleg. Uphill short fours always leave me feeling a bit shortchanged, and this one was no different. The domed green wants a spinning, fuller approach shot and there's ample room left to set yourself up for one. I still prefer this hole and the new long par three that follows it to the par five they replaced, but this is not a short four that golfers will recount the thrill of playing and the agony of deciding on a tee shot strategy each round.



Looking up from the 6th hole, past the 12th green towards the 13th and 14th. Full-size version here



A handful of greensites at Concord are tucked up against narrow streams where balls that miss slightly can end up wet. The combination of such a wild green and the proximity of water at the par five 8th was a bold one, which I suppose adds drama to the climax of the hole where it is missing from the drive and second shot due to the narrow corridor. This is one hole where the old Concord strategy of just keeping it in the corridor remains.


'
While the bunkering outside the dogleg at the 10th has remained, the green now at least rewards play from out there, and some tree removal creates a pleasant vista down to the 8th green and beyond.



The 13th is another uphill short par four, and is compromised by the road to its right and a par three tucked up against the left-hand-side. But Renaissance has made it a far more enjoyable and interesting hole by claiming enough extra width that you'd now consider hitting driver, and building this magnificent boomerang/lion's mouth green where a change of pin position will alter where you want to approach from.



Looking down the drop-shot short-iron 14th towards the 12th green immediately behind it and 5th green in the distance -- the reverse of the view in the picture further up.





The par five 15th was an example of a hole where tree-induced narrowness couldn't be fixed (it borders 11, 12, 16 and 17!), but the revamped bunkering makes it far more visually-appealing as well as more interesting on the lay-up and around the green.


The result is a course that's far more fun and interesting to play than its previous incarnation, and the positives in the new bunkering and green complexes took my mind off the limitations the site has, which previously were never far from your mind as you aimed once more for the centre of the fairway off the tee and the middle of the green on your approach.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:07:34 AM by Scott Warren »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2019, 03:19:15 PM »
Hi Scott:


Nice to see your review of Concord here.  Too bad there aren't more people who can chime in.


I was interested to see the review because I have yet to see the finished course.  My time for golf in my last two trips to Australia has been sorely limited, but I have to admit I've also been avoiding the potential photo opportunity there, because the club are so eager to attach my name to the place.


In truth, most of the work is Brian Slawnik's, with greens shaping assistance from Brian Schneider, and they should get most of the credit for it, as our contract specified.  I think they did very well with the place.  I did have something to do with the choice to have couch grass surrounds to introduce chipping to the mix . . . that is the one thing I really dislike about kikuyu, that it prevents playing the ball low around the greens, whether on approach or when chipping.


My primary input on the course was in two stints of five days each to work on the greens.  I would say the greens where I had the most input were 6-7-8 and then 12-13-14 (and especially the way 12 & 14 blend together when you look from #14 tee) . . . which were some of the ones you admired, so I guess I've still got a good touch.   ;)   The 13th is my ode to Bill Coore's favorite template, and the deception bunker at the 4th was also something I worked on.  The 18th green, which you didn't mention, was another that I had a lot to do with.


The other hole I had quite a bit to do with was the short par-4 5th, which you didn't like so much.  I can't say I disagree with your description of it.  The hole plays around a property corner at the dogleg, and there were serious liability problems with it:  on the previous version short hitters who hadn't got to the corner tended to block their second shots o.b. right into the road.  The best way to mitigate that was to shorten the hole and have the green sit out where you didn't need to cut the corner.


We did consider a few other changes to the routing, but I felt they would be changes for the sake of change, and not significant improvements, so I preferred to keep the routing mostly intact.  [Even the new 8th hole was once a par-5 as it is today.]




I had reservations about signing up this project, because I was sure that no matter what the contract said, once I agreed to be there for a few days, the club would be sure to attach my name to it.  I never feel like the design is "mine" if I haven't done the routing of the course, because my style is all about where the holes sit on the ground, and there was very little scope to change the routing. To me, that makes the new Gunnamatta course at The National way more "mine" than Concord could ever be.  [By the same token, I guess ten days on site to build greens is more time than Dr. MacKenzie spent on any of his Australian projects.  :D ]


[/size] A big part of the work at Concord was taking fill away from green sites so they would better sit on the ground; in the last renovation they had trucked in a lot of dirt to build up the greens and put bunkers to both sides of them.  Actually, it was the same at The National, but since we moved a lot of the green sites there, the new ones were much easier to build -- but there was still an awful amount of work dismantling where the old greens had been. 


In conclusion, I think the work was very good value for money, and made the course significantly better.  It just bothers me when clients act like my name is more valuable than the actual work that [mostly] Brian did, especially since I don't set my fees on that basis.  It's that sort of thing that is causing me to look at restructuring my company, to be sure that everyone is getting fairly credited for what they did.


Greg Gilson

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2019, 04:27:07 PM »

Tom, thanks for the added background.


Scott, thanks for taking the time to lodge the "tour" & review - its a good read. I am reciprocal with Concord but have not played there in 10 years - never overly motivated to spend a day there instead of La Perouse or some of the other options when in Sydney. This certainly looks worth the time now, if only to see 13 (previously one of my least favourite holes anywhere).


Thanks again guys & congratulations to Brian/Brian.

Ben Stephens

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2019, 05:08:21 PM »
The work done at Concord looks cool


Scott - any chance that you have photos of what it was before so we can see the difference

James Bennett

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2019, 07:20:18 PM »
Thanks Scottt and Tom for excellent posts.
I tried to see Concord and Gunnamatta on recent trips but failed - I could have tried harder, but I will see them both over the next two years. 

I've played Concord on and off for the last 45 years, and remember the pre and post Ross Watson rebuild, as well as the increasing tree growth as the trees matured.  Concord has always been 'the club' west of the city and had more width in the playing corridors than the competition.  It was a course built to challenge/protect par.
James B
ps Tom (and Brian) - Royal Adelaide is greening up ready for the Womens Aust Open in February, with the short grass areas added on the par 5's approaches over the last year starting to tighten up (they used to be light sandy rough).  RA is a real example of the distance a ball can run away from a green is misstruck because of the short couch (bermuda) grass.
pps  I played at St Michaels on a recent trip to Sydney (my first game there).  Couch is generally used but parts of the course have kikuyu infestation, particularly around some greens, perhaps 30 metres from the green to green edge.  Some holes have had the kikuyu removed and replaced with couch, and the playability/enjoyment of those holes is so superior.  Some have had a green uprade as well, but for me the significant improvement is the conversion of the approach from kikuyu to couch.  I look forward to seeing how Concord plays with the new surrounds.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 07:29:11 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Sean_A

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2019, 05:03:45 AM »
Cheers Scott

It strikes me that a project on a course without a positive or widespread reputation such as this can really open doors in terms of model for clubs in a similar position to consider as a way to improve the course dramatically even though there will be no media splash or hope of impacting rankings. I get the impression Renaissance did similar thing at Common Ground. That is, made a lot of positive changes for a local course which in the main only members and locals will enjoy because these are not destination courses. Anyway, I just wanted to say that it is projects such as this which add to their wide diversity of work which make Renaissance stand out from the crowd.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2019, 09:19:31 AM »
Cheers Scott

It strikes me that a project on a course without a positive or widespread reputation such as this can really open doors in terms of model for clubs in a similar position to consider as a way to improve the course dramatically even though there will be no media splash or hope of impacting rankings. I get the impression Renaissance did similar thing at Common Ground. That is, made a lot of positive changes for a local course which in the main only members and locals will enjoy because these are not destination courses. Anyway, I just wanted to say that it is projects such as this which add to their wide diversity of work which make Renaissance stand out from the crowd.

Happy Hockey


Thanks, Sean.


I can't quite agree with you that these clubs don't hope for a media splash or a rankings impact, though, considering how many press interviews they arrange when I'm in town.  Most of the clubs firmly believe that their local standing in the rankings (ahead of their rival clubs) is crucial to their long-term viability.  I couldn't begin to tell you if that's true or not, but I know that's why they hire us, and why they want to use my name and not Brian's.


CommonGround was mostly an exception to that, as they were not seeking to raise the green fee, yet it was still important to them to have me personally involved.  Maybe they liked me for my brain?


There was a thread here just recently about which is more important- routing or greens shaping?  I stuck up for routing, there , but I've always thought the routing was 50% of the game and the shaping the other 50%.  And I've always said that any course with a really good set of greens starts at about 6 on the Doak Scale.  Concord is an example of that now, while the Gunnamatta at The National (like CommonGround) involved major re-routing.


Routing and greens shaping are the two types of renovation that force a club to close holes, which is why most stick to bunker renovations- but the impact of a bunker renovation can never be as great.

Scott Warren

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2019, 04:40:34 PM »
Thanks for chiming in so thoroughly, Tom.


To be honest, I deliberately kept the references in the post to “Renaissance” because I was a aware Brian(s) did much of what ended up in the ground. But “what would Brian Slawnik do with a steep, tight clay & kike site?” wouldn’t have been as good a headline! :D It also discounts that a big part of what’s made the reno so good is the vision of the type of personality the course should have, which I imagine was a good part yours.


Aside from the ideas about individual holes, the most interesting thing for me about your two presentations to the NSWGC membership has been the info about the way Renaissance works on the ground.


Interesting that the greens I most preferred tended to be the ones you had the most involvement in. I imagine that’s not just because you’re very good at that sort of thing (!) but also because those were the ones that were meant to be the highlights.


There were more foreshortening bunkers than I recall seeing on your other courses. Was that a deliberate approach for this project or something you’re doing more of generally? The only thing that immediately comes to mind is that all your other courses I’ve played are in firm, windy locations where the green fronts are generally open to allow the ball to approach on the ground, whereas that isn’t a consideration at Concord.

MKrohn

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2019, 08:36:42 PM »

Having played most of my golf on courses around Sydney very similar to Concord, tree lined, kikuyu on small sites I was interested to see the work that had occurred.
I am never sure where I stand on renovation/make over projects on these small sites in Sydney, given it often involves the clubs going into debt, as my club did. In a tough member market with rising wage costs, flat revenue lines, you then spend the next 20 years digging yourself out of the hole hoping that nothing negative occurs on a large scale.
Tom, I could ask guys I know who are members at Concord about the cost and financial position post renovation, leaving that aside I think from this punters view that the outcome is really good (about as expansive as I get). It just seems a bigger site (which suits my eye), the transition from green to tee is seamless and at least there is the opportunity to play different shots around the greens since the horrible weed is gone. For those that don't know Sydney golfers and councils, the fact that the renovation was able to do away with a reasonable amount of trees, is somewhat of a miracle, the place is better for it.
Will be interested to know how much work the guys are doing to keep the kikuyu out of the green surrounds.
I'm not overly good at course reviews, however would be happy to be a member at Concord.


Scott, never thought of Concord as steep but its all relative I suppose.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 08:41:52 PM by MKrohn »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2019, 08:59:44 PM »

I am never sure where I stand on renovation/make over projects on these small sites in Sydney, given it often involves the clubs going into debt, as my club did. In a tough member market with rising wage costs, flat revenue lines, you then spend the next 20 years digging yourself out of the hole hoping that nothing negative occurs on a large scale.
Tom, I could ask guys I know who are members at Concord about the cost and financial position post renovation, leaving that aside I think from this punters view that the outcome is really good (about as expansive as I get).



MKrohn:


You and me both, as far as renovation / make-over projects are concerned.  I'm keenly aware that we start with 18 holes, and finish with 18 after a bunch of expense and inconvenience, and any "improvement" is a matter of opinion.  That's why I am reluctant to take on such jobs, and why I said no to Concord at the start.


That also explains why they want to use my name instead of Brian's, even though they totally respect his work there . . . it's because a big goal for them is being able to sell a better product to potential new members, and there are lots of people for whom the name on the label is more important than the quality of the goods themselves, because they really don't know how to judge the latter for themselves.  The same is true of The National; they were very quick to decide that a course with my name on it would not only be more fun for their members to play, but might increase their share price and/or attract more new members.


I have always resisted the idea of charging for my name, but as a result, we have never set prices correctly for this sort of deal.  I feel entirely different about CommonGround and Memorial Park, where nobody was out to make a buck off my name; they really did just want to make the course better.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2019, 09:55:10 PM »

I am never sure where I stand on renovation/make over projects on these small sites in Sydney, given it often involves the clubs going into debt, as my club did. In a tough member market with rising wage costs, flat revenue lines, you then spend the next 20 years digging yourself out of the hole hoping that nothing negative occurs on a large scale.
Tom, I could ask guys I know who are members at Concord about the cost and financial position post renovation, leaving that aside I think from this punters view that the outcome is really good (about as expansive as I get).



MKrohn:


You and me both, as far as renovation / make-over projects are concerned.  I'm keenly aware that we start with 18 holes, and finish with 18 after a bunch of expense and inconvenience, and any "improvement" is a matter of opinion.  That's why I am reluctant to take on such jobs, and why I said no to Concord at the start.


That also explains why they want to use my name instead of Brian's, even though they totally respect his work there . . . it's because a big goal for them is being able to sell a better product to potential new members, and there are lots of people for whom the name on the label is more important than the quality of the goods themselves, because they really don't know how to judge the latter for themselves.  The same is true of The National; they were very quick to decide that a course with my name on it would not only be more fun for their members to play, but might increase their share price and/or attract more new members.


I have always resisted the idea of charging for my name, but as a result, we have never set prices correctly for this sort of deal.  I feel entirely different about CommonGround and Memorial Park, where nobody was out to make a buck off my name; they really did just want to make the course better.


Reminds me of the famous story about Clark Clifford, the Presidential Counselor and Washington power lawyer. He wrote a two paragraph letter to take care of a problem for a client. When the client objected to a $25,000 bill (a lot of money in those days), for such a short amount of work, Clifford replied, “Tear my signature off the letter and see how much it is worth.”


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2019, 10:38:51 PM »
Tom -
maybe it's my imagination, or the less than ideal soil they share, or the trees, or your mention of Memorial - but when Scott posted the photos of Concord my first thought was that the only course I could think of that you've designed/worked resembling it was in fact Memorial. Did you find any similarities?



Ben Stephens

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2019, 04:48:17 AM »
Having viewed the aerials in Google Earth using different timelines. It is quite a big change.


Tom - the bunkers are similar in size and a lot smaller is this due to maintenance costs? as they are more like what you see in the UK rather than Australian courses that are mostly influenced by the sand belt.


The trees seem to have been thinned out - is this to allow for air to flow across the course and for better fairway conditions?


Judging from the aerials - it looks a much better golf course than the previous incarnation.


Will try out imgur to see if I can put the images up onto GCA

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2019, 12:25:04 PM »
Ben:


A couple of answers below, in red.


Having viewed the aerials in Google Earth using different timelines. It is quite a big change.


Tom - the bunkers are similar in size and a lot smaller is this due to maintenance costs? as they are more like what you see in the UK rather than Australian courses that are mostly influenced by the sand belt.  Concord is emphatically not on sandy ground, and I'm always going to do less bunkering [number and size] when working on clay, where sand is more easily contaminated and where bunkers have to be fitted with expensive liners.  We also recognize that it saves on maintenance costs.  But one of the primary reasons for it is also to create variety.  The previous design had bunkers left and right of almost every green, and no variety of recovery shots.  Taking away bunkers gave the holes more variety.  I won't do it today, but I should really do a post one of these days on my theory of bunkering.


The trees seem to have been thinned out - is this to allow for air to flow across the course and for better fairway conditions?
In certain places, trees were cut due to shade issues on the turf, but a lot of the reasons for our cutting are aesthetic.  Just as with my comment on the bunkers, before, nearly every hole was tree lined.  We tried to open up places for sunlight to peek through, and cleared behind greens where possible to either create a skyline green [16] or open a view through to another hole [10, 11, 14].  If they'd have let us, we might have taken out a whole row of trees here or there, to give more variety to the sizes of open space one plays through . . . we did that at Bel Air, and it feels fantastic now, although Mr. Thomas's routing has a lot to do with that.


Judging from the aerials - it looks a much better golf course than the previous incarnation.


Will try out imgur to see if I can put the images up onto GCA

MKrohn

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2019, 04:16:12 PM »
Ben:


A couple of answers below, in red.


Having viewed the aerials in Google Earth using different timelines. It is quite a big change.


Tom - the bunkers are similar in size and a lot smaller is this due to maintenance costs? as they are more like what you see in the UK rather than Australian courses that are mostly influenced by the sand belt.  Concord is emphatically not on sandy ground, and I'm always going to do less bunkering [number and size] when working on clay, where sand is more easily contaminated and where bunkers have to be fitted with expensive liners.  We also recognize that it saves on maintenance costs.  But one of the primary reasons for it is also to create variety.  The previous design had bunkers left and right of almost every green, and no variety of recovery shots.  Taking away bunkers gave the holes more variety.  I won't do it today, but I should really do a post one of these days on my theory of bunkering.




Will be keen to see your bunker post.


When it used to rain in Sydney we were prone to getting contamination in the lower lying bunkers, this results in us having to spend money on replacing sand (its costly and time consuming)


Did you use liners or was capilliary concrete an option for the Concord bunkers?

Ryan Coles

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2019, 05:05:14 PM »
I think this is one of the most interesting threads on here for a long time, from a perspective of what’s been said and also what’s not been said.


Interesting from a business standpoint. What work to take on, what to pass on and the balance between keeping your very skilled guys busy cos you’re going to need them on the next big high profile project, but also in terms of remaining exclusive and a prestigious and desirable brand.


Tom Doak has never been shy in highlighting the work of others, to the point that amateur lay people such as myself know the names of those credited with the majority of the work in this thread. 


Whether a new routing / completely new course, or modest improvements, those paying the bills will shout ‘Doak Course’ etc and those playing it judge it on that basis, regardless of the extent of the brief.


I sense the discomfort from what Tom is saying: 1. It wasn’t my personal work, give credit to those who did it and 2. It’s not ‘my course’, don’t judge it as if I designed and built it.

The balance between retaining excellent staff, keeping them busy, and giving them freedom, whilst enhancing the brand seems to me to be at the heart of being successful at the top end of the business.


There has to be a consideration of the work you don’t want to be associated with as well as what you do.

I think that can work both ways as well. I’m sure that Clubs in the UK and elsewhere think that C&C and Doak etc won’t be interested as they’re always working on Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes type new build projects and will be prohibitively expensive and not interested in the Hankley’s and Formby’s.

I’ve always found the type of work in this thread and the new Course in France far more interesting, as I’m sure those who never get to work on the ocean or on sand think what they could do given the chance and conversely, what the top guys couldn’t do if presented with the usual constraints that they work under.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 05:06:48 PM by Ryan Coles »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2019, 06:00:41 PM »
Ryan,

I understand that.  Perhaps I distill it down too simply.  Whose name appeared on the check of the person doing the actual work.  The name of the club or Tom Doak?   ;)

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2019, 08:22:44 PM »
Ryan,

I understand that.  Perhaps I distill it down too simply.  Whose name appeared on the check of the person doing the actual work.  The name of the club or Tom Doak?   ;)


It was mine.  However, as of next year, the plan is that my associates will be the owners of Renaissance Golf Design, Inc., and I will only work on the things that I want to.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2019, 08:37:29 PM »

Ryan:

A few comments in red.


I sense the discomfort from what Tom is saying: 1. It wasn’t my personal work, give credit to those who did it and 2. It’s not ‘my course’, don’t judge it as if I designed and built it.   There is no 'discomfort' in the second part - the work is good, and the part of it that I did is particularly good. :D

The balance between retaining excellent staff, keeping them busy, and giving them freedom, whilst enhancing the brand seems to me to be at the heart of being successful at the top end of the business.


There has to be a consideration of the work you don’t want to be associated with as well as what you do.

I think that can work both ways as well. I’m sure that Clubs in the UK and elsewhere think that C&C and Doak etc won’t be interested as they’re always working on Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes type new build projects and will be prohibitively expensive and not interested in the Hankley’s and Formby’s.  We do get inquiries from clubs in the U.K.; I have interviewed for a couple, but lost out because I am clearly ambivalent about committing to spending much time there when we have so much else going on.  I do not believe our rates have been prohibitively expensive.  However I often hear that such and such a club considered calling us but didn't, because they assumed we would be too expensive.  I know for a fact that Brian Schneider would love to do consulting work in the U.K., as would Clyde Johnson, and I believe they would kick the asses of the guys who are getting all the work there now, but they doesn't have the same 'pedigree' that I do, which goes to the heart of this discussion.  Ivy League and Oxbridge degrees are way too important in our line of work, but they do partially explain the success of myself, Gil Hanse, the Joneses, and Martin Ebert.

I’ve always found the type of work in this thread and the new Course in France far more interesting, as I’m sure those who never get to work on the ocean or on sand think what they could do given the chance and conversely, what the top guys couldn’t do if presented with the usual constraints that they work under.   There is no question that I have benefitted from doing so much work on sandy ground . . . I figured that out ten years before Mike Keiser did.  While we can't display such a varied palette in heavier soils, we do understand the difference, and what we CAN do.  Indeed, I have found that minimalism is at its most valuable on difficult terrain such as Stone Eagle or Tumble Creek, when you are trying to figure out how to make a golf course fit in rocky soils without having to do more than necessary.

Ben Stephens

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2019, 02:22:28 AM »
Ben:


A couple of answers below, in red.


Having viewed the aerials in Google Earth using different timelines. It is quite a big change.


Tom - the bunkers are similar in size and a lot smaller is this due to maintenance costs? as they are more like what you see in the UK rather than Australian courses that are mostly influenced by the sand belt.  Concord is emphatically not on sandy ground, and I'm always going to do less bunkering [number and size] when working on clay, where sand is more easily contaminated and where bunkers have to be fitted with expensive liners.  We also recognize that it saves on maintenance costs.  But one of the primary reasons for it is also to create variety.  The previous design had bunkers left and right of almost every green, and no variety of recovery shots.  Taking away bunkers gave the holes more variety.  I won't do it today, but I should really do a post one of these days on my theory of bunkering.


The trees seem to have been thinned out - is this to allow for air to flow across the course and for better fairway conditions?
In certain places, trees were cut due to shade issues on the turf, but a lot of the reasons for our cutting are aesthetic.  Just as with my comment on the bunkers, before, nearly every hole was tree lined.  We tried to open up places for sunlight to peek through, and cleared behind greens where possible to either create a skyline green [16] or open a view through to another hole [10, 11, 14].  If they'd have let us, we might have taken out a whole row of trees here or there, to give more variety to the sizes of open space one plays through . . . we did that at Bel Air, and it feels fantastic now, although Mr. Thomas's routing has a lot to do with that.


Judging from the aerials - it looks a much better golf course than the previous incarnation.


Will try out imgur to see if I can put the images up onto GCA


Thank you Tom for the insight I also agree that routing is a very important factor as well as the ebb and flow through the holes.


There are different varieties of clay, climate and grass types to suit the local climate it seems very clear that the previous incarnation was more expensive to maintain and had various problems like shading, airflow, sunlight etc. Those things are simple solutions which lots of other clubs need to understand that they don't have to blow the bank to improve their course to another level or few.



Converting the par 5 into 2 holes makes more sense also from a health and safety perspective as it was close to houses. The shorter the club the less deviation off line it is.


Concord now looks much more like a UK style parkland course in Australia. 


It is interesting that the courses that you have worked on if its a sandy base there is lots of sand features and on clay base less bunkers. Would you put in more grass bunkers/hollows on clay?


Regarding clay - Celtic Manor for example is on one of the worst clay - red clay and in an area that it quite wet yet it spent millions on drainage and has large bunkers which are expensive to maintain.  :o


Have to say that Bel Air now looks like a naturally beautiful Hollywood actress rather than one that has so many facelifts and botox treatments. Would love to play the current version one day.

Ben Stephens

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2019, 02:29:34 AM »

Ryan:

A few comments in red.


I think that can work both ways as well. I’m sure that Clubs in the UK and elsewhere think that C&C and Doak etc won’t be interested as they’re always working on Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes type new build projects and will be prohibitively expensive and not interested in the Hankley’s and Formby’s.  We do get inquiries from clubs in the U.K.; I have interviewed for a couple, but lost out because I am clearly ambivalent about committing to spending much time there when we have so much else going on.  I do not believe our rates have been prohibitively expensive.  However I often hear that such and such a club considered calling us but didn't, because they assumed we would be too expensive.  I know for a fact that Brian Schneider would love to do consulting work in the U.K., as would Clyde Johnson, and I believe they would kick the asses of the guys who are getting all the work there now, but they doesn't have the same 'pedigree' that I do, which goes to the heart of this discussion.  Ivy League and Oxbridge degrees are way too important in our line of work, but they do partially explain the success of myself, Gil Hanse, the Joneses, and Martin Ebert.



Tom


Interesting that you point out Ivy League or Oxbridge degrees. It is quite common that top golf clubs have members that tend to go with their fraternity or alma mater whether you know them or not.


Both Cambridge and Oxford don't have landscape architecture degree courses. Cambridge only just brought back their architecture course in the last decade and Oxford does not have one. They are not designer-ish universities so I question whether members from Oxbridge do have a strong design background however they do speak in terms of spoken and body language that a number of fellow Oxbridge club members will be accustomed to.


Cheers
Ben


Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2019, 10:59:48 AM »


It is interesting that the courses that you have worked on if its a sandy base there is lots of sand features and on clay base less bunkers. Would you put in more grass bunkers/hollows on clay?



I'm not a big believer in grass bunkers.  A lot of the ones on older courses are sand bunkers that were grassed in over time.


To me, if you're in the rough ten yards off the fairway or green, it doesn't make a lot of difference if you're in a bit of a hollow, or not.  The only reason to create a "grass bunker" would be to stop the drainage from going across the green or the fairway.  I have certainly done that on occasion.




Jeff Schley

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2019, 11:10:38 AM »


It is interesting that the courses that you have worked on if its a sandy base there is lots of sand features and on clay base less bunkers. Would you put in more grass bunkers/hollows on clay?



I'm not a big believer in grass bunkers.  A lot of the ones on older courses are sand bunkers that were grassed in over time.


To me, if you're in the rough ten yards off the fairway or green, it doesn't make a lot of difference if you're in a bit of a hollow, or not.  The only reason to create a "grass bunker" would be to stop the drainage from going across the green or the fairway.  I have certainly done that on occasion.
What about stance, especially if it is on the downslope chipping to a pushed up green? I know this is a somewhat rare instance, but it would present a challenge.  Certainly it is cheaper to maintain grass bunkers, so that could help maintenance budgets.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2019, 11:22:24 AM »

Both Cambridge and Oxford don't have landscape architecture degree courses. Cambridge only just brought back their architecture course in the last decade and Oxford does not have one. They are not designer-ish universities so I question whether members from Oxbridge do have a strong design background however they do speak in terms of spoken and body language that a number of fellow Oxbridge club members will be accustomed to.



Ben:


I think Cornell's landscape architecture program is top notch, but I have always said that only about 20% of what I do today has anything to do with what I learned in college.  Golf architecture is very specialized and I went to one of the best graduate schools for that:  the school of Pete and Alice Dye.


In fact, after one summer of construction, I might not have gone back and finished my degree except that I didn't want to be labeled as a quitter [or shock my parents].  Plus, I only had one year left, and I thought I had a chance to win that overseas scholarship which was like a golden ticket for me.  But I knew I was learning way more about design out in the dirt than I would back in the ivy-covered design studio.


I know that there are lots of golf course designers who pride themselves on their landscape architecture degree and think that there is something to it that separates them from all the shapers [and professional golfers] who want to hang out a shingle.  Mr. Dye was pretty succinct about that:  the only thing that matters is what you can produce on the ground.  My associates over the years have had degrees in things ranging from History to Architecture to Automotive Engineering to Biochemistry; in the end, what matters is they are all smart and creative and they all love golf, and they are all as talented at design as anyone I know, "design degree" or no.


Clients, however, don't understand the business that well.  Robert Trent Jones went to Cornell for a couple of years, but sent his sons to Yale, which shows where he thought the balance fell between "design school" and "old school connections".  In contrast, I didn't encourage my kids to chase an Ivy League degree at all.  They'd probably be making more money today if they had, but that has never been my measure of success, and happily that's one thing I did pass down to my kids.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Tight, steep, tree-choked kikuyu on clay: What does Tom Doak do?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2019, 11:25:13 AM »

What about stance, especially if it is on the downslope chipping to a pushed up green? I know this is a somewhat rare instance, but it would present a challenge.  Certainly it is cheaper to maintain grass bunkers, so that could help maintenance budgets.


You can have an odd stance without being in an artificial hollow.  [You must not have played many of my courses!]


Grass bunkers are no cheaper to maintain than rough in general.  Where we diverge is the idea that you have to shape stuff to make the course harder.  I'm not building 100 bunkers any more, either.

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