[Jeff Schley]

70/20/10 has been applied to many professions pretty successfully.  On the job is paramount with formal education only 10% of the equation.  A foundation maybe, but not critical in many fields.

[Jeff Schley]

What about stance, especially if it is on the downslope chipping to a pushed up green? I know this is a somewhat rare instance, but it would present a challenge.  Certainly it is cheaper to maintain grass bunkers, so that could help maintenance budgets.

You can have an odd stance without being in an artificial hollow.  [You must not have played many of my courses!]


Grass bunkers are no cheaper to maintain than rough in general.  Where we diverge is the idea that you have to shape stuff to make the course harder.  I'm not building 100 bunkers any more, either.

True you can, but a hollow exacerbates that don't you think?  I was comparing grass bunkers to sand bunker cost, not rough.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,


Couldn't agree more with that last graphic.  I had maybe 5-6 classes that were relevant to what i've done/currently do in my career, and most of that was completely obsolete a long time ago.  For most, its just a hunt for that one piece of paper at the end...

[Tom_Doak]

You can have an odd stance without being in an artificial hollow.  [You must not have played many of my courses!]

Grass bunkers are no cheaper to maintain than rough in general.  Where we diverge is the idea that you have to shape stuff to make the course harder.  I'm not building 100 bunkers any more, either.

True you can, but a hollow exacerbates that don't you think?  I was comparing grass bunkers to sand bunker cost, not rough.

Sure, but a hollow - in clay soils - is not a natural landform.  If it existed, it would be a wetland.


By contrast, there are hundreds of grassy hollows on links courses . . . indeed, pretty much every surface is part of a grassy hollow, whether very large or very small.

[Ben Stephens]

It is interesting that the courses that you have worked on if its a sandy base there is lots of sand features and on clay base less bunkers. Would you put in more grass bunkers/hollows on clay?

I'm not a big believer in grass bunkers.  A lot of the ones on older courses are sand bunkers that were grassed in over time.


To me, if you're in the rough ten yards off the fairway or green, it doesn't make a lot of difference if you're in a bit of a hollow, or not.  The only reason to create a "grass bunker" would be to stop the drainage from going across the green or the fairway.  I have certainly done that on occasion.

Hi Tom,


Andrew Green's work at Oak Hill has removed a number of RTJ bunkers and now reverted to rough off the greens some with ridges and others banks/grass hollows (redesigned 15th). It seems to be the way forward as it makes it harder for the pros to recover out of and easier for the every day golfers.


Also sand prices in the UK have been going up meaning that clubs are filling in bunkers or reducing the size of them which has been an ongoing trend. I wonder whether its the same in other countries


Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Both Cambridge and Oxford don't have landscape architecture degree courses. Cambridge only just brought back their architecture course in the last decade and Oxford does not have one. They are not designer-ish universities so I question whether members from Oxbridge do have a strong design background however they do speak in terms of spoken and body language that a number of fellow Oxbridge club members will be accustomed to.

Ben:


I think Cornell's landscape architecture program is top notch, but I have always said that only about 20% of what I do today has anything to do with what I learned in college.  Golf architecture is very specialized and I went to one of the best graduate schools for that:  the school of Pete and Alice Dye.


In fact, after one summer of construction, I might not have gone back and finished my degree except that I didn't want to be labeled as a quitter [or shock my parents].  Plus, I only had one year left, and I thought I had a chance to win that overseas scholarship which was like a golden ticket for me.  But I knew I was learning way more about design out in the dirt than I would back in the ivy-covered design studio.


I know that there are lots of golf course designers who pride themselves on their landscape architecture degree and think that there is something to it that separates them from all the shapers [and professional golfers] who want to hang out a shingle.  Mr. Dye was pretty succinct about that:  the only thing that matters is what you can produce on the ground.  My associates over the years have had degrees in things ranging from History to Architecture to Automotive Engineering to Biochemistry; in the end, what matters is they are all smart and creative and they all love golf, and they are all as talented at design as anyone I know, "design degree" or no.


Clients, however, don't understand the business that well.  Robert Trent Jones went to Cornell for a couple of years, but sent his sons to Yale, which shows where he thought the balance fell between "design school" and "old school connections".  In contrast, I didn't encourage my kids to chase an Ivy League degree at all.  They'd probably be making more money today if they had, but that has never been my measure of success, and happily that's one thing I did pass down to my kids.

Hi Tom,


Cornell's Architecture program is also top notch its the go to university for Architecture and Landscape Architecture. In the UK its the Architectural Association or Bartlett School of Architecture


You don't stop training at university that continues in practice. You learn something new every day. I have been fortunate that GCA existed which has enabled me to learn from you (particularly the site visit at Woodhall Spa), Robin Hiseman at JCB and working with Adrian Stiff for 7 years plus working as a greenkeeper at my local club in the summer months whilst doing the degree courses at university.


Would have loved to see Mr Dye at work he seems to have been a huge factor for you which is great to see knowledge is being passed on to the future of golf course design. I applaud you the fact you don't take all the glory for every work that Renaissance does and credit the people who actually did the work. Very few well known designers actually do this.


Cheers
Ben

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


They don't do it because the financial incentives are in favor of using the known name.  Tom Fazio is retired, but a club like Monterey Peninsula CC still paid him to put his name on the work of his former associates, and Tim Jackson and David Kahn were happy to play along, because otherwise they might not have gotten the commission.


The only difference with Concord is that I was too principled (or too stupid) to charge them extra for that - or else, they did think they paid a premium and I let Brian keep most of it.

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