OT - Goldfinger At Stoke Park

[Duncan Cheslett]

Definitely Colt.


A whole bunch of us from the MacKenzie Society stopped by at Stoke Park some years ago on our way to play our annual match against the Colt Association - that year it was at Camberley Heath.


The weather was so awful that most decided against paying the subsidised but still hefty green fee. Only the intrepid Ken Moodie and I ventured out. We were rewarded after a few holes with the most glorious early autumn day!


10690356_10202973310473891_3105414843272191199_n by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

I can remember little of the course. It was okay. It's nowhere near as good as members think it is.

The Colt Association was based at Stoke Park. Sadly it seems to have died something of a death and so our annual match no longer takes place.

[Adam Lawrence]

Stoke Park (Stoke Poges as was) is a very important course in Colt's oeuvre -- it was his first really big commission and one which played a major part in making his name. And, obviously, it also provided a secure base for Hugh Alison to establish himself in the golf business (he was its founding secretary).


To me that makes the wrecking of the course in the recent work doubly disappointing. What makes it even worse is that it was touted originally as a restoration -- when they first announced the work, and didn't name a golf architect, I inquired why and got the response from the general manager that they didn't want to use an architect because golf architects wanted to put their own stamp on the course and they were committed to their only architect being Harry Colt. A pity then, that they turned the course into something that looks nothing like Colt ever built...

[Mark Pearce]

I played there in 1992 with my soon to be father in law and well before it had become a smart country club.  Back then it was Stoke Poges Golf Club and the grand country house was mostly derelict, with just the rather downtrodden changing rooms and a bar in use.  I have played there occasionally many times since.  The course, for all the work on it, is no better than it was then.  The green fee is in a different stratosphere.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Pretty nice Braid course but it could use a restoration.

Colt, surely?

Yes, sorry.  I had braid on the brain from reading the 5 of Braid's best thread.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Goldfinger probably should have called Bond out on picking up his ball on 18.

Match Play rules.  Once Bond missed the putt to tie the hole, he can pick-up.
Then once it "appeared" Goldfinger played the wrong ball back in the fairway, at that point Goldfinger had lost the hole, and neither player needed to play anymore stroke on that hole.
Under both circumstances, Bond was OK to pick-up his ball.  No need to hole out once the hole is lost by stokes; or won due to opponent's Lost of Hole penalty when he hit the "wrong" ball.

[Peter Flory]

Goldfinger probably should have called Bond out on picking up his ball on 18.

Match Play rules.  Once Bond missed the putt to tie the hole, he can pick-up.
Then once it "appeared" Goldfinger played the wrong ball back in the fairway, at that point Goldfinger had lost the hole, and neither player needed to play anymore stroke on that hole.
Under both circumstances, Bond was OK to pick-up his ball.  No need to hole out once the hole is lost by stokes; or won due to opponent's Lost of Hole penalty when he hit the "wrong" ball.

But didn't Bond forfeit the hole before the wrong-ball penalty was discovered? 

This seems somewhat applicable, although I'm not sure that I follow it completely.  Assuming that the "four-ball" part doesn't matter and it is just the example used because it is the most common for players to play the wrong ball. 

In Four-Ball match play, if no player completes a hole, the side whose player is last to pick up or be disqualified from the hole wins the hole.

For example, side A-B are playing against side C-D in a Four-Ball match. On a given hole, by mistake Player A plays Player C’s ball and then Player C plays Player A’s ball and each hole out with that ball. Player B and Player D both play into penalty areas and pick up. During play of the next hole, Player A and Player C determine that both of them played a wrong ball on the prior hole.

The ruling is that Player A and Player C are disqualified for the prior hole. Therefore, if Player B picked up before Player D, side C-D won the hole and if Player D picked up before Player B, side A-B won the hole. If it cannot be determined which player picked up first, the Committee should rule that the hole was tied.

[Pete_Pittock]

The applicability of four ball match play rules in this situation is that is not applicable.  Four ball match play is different than (two ball) match play.   Given all the circumstances  from a rules standpoint I am in Auric's corner, playing under the strict rules of the R&A 007 should likely have been disqualified, assuming a similarity of the rules between then and now. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Goldfinger probably should have called Bond out on picking up his ball on 18.

Match Play rules.  Once Bond missed the putt to tie the hole, he can pick-up.
Then once it "appeared" Goldfinger played the wrong ball back in the fairway, at that point Goldfinger had lost the hole, and neither player needed to play anymore stroke on that hole.
Under both circumstances, Bond was OK to pick-up his ball.  No need to hole out once the hole is lost by stokes; or won due to opponent's Lost of Hole penalty when he hit the "wrong" ball.

But didn't Bond forfeit the hole before the wrong-ball penalty was discovered? 

This seems somewhat applicable, although I'm not sure that I follow it completely.  Assuming that the "four-ball" part doesn't matter and it is just the example used because it is the most common for players to play the wrong ball. 

In Four-Ball match play, if no player completes a hole, the side whose player is last to pick up or be disqualified from the hole wins the hole.

For example, side A-B are playing against side C-D in a Four-Ball match. On a given hole, by mistake Player A plays Player C’s ball and then Player C plays Player A’s ball and each hole out with that ball. Player B and Player D both play into penalty areas and pick up. During play of the next hole, Player A and Player C determine that both of them played a wrong ball on the prior hole.

The ruling is that Player A and Player C are disqualified for the prior hole. Therefore, if Player B picked up before Player D, side C-D won the hole and if Player D picked up before Player B, side A-B won the hole. If it cannot be determined which player picked up first, the Committee should rule that the hole was tied.

But was this the rule in 1964? 

[Peter Flory]

He who has the gold makes the rules!  I know that hasn't changed.  And Bond had the gold. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Goldfinger probably should have called Bond out on picking up his ball on 18.

Match Play rules.  Once Bond missed the putt to tie the hole, he can pick-up.
Then once it "appeared" Goldfinger played the wrong ball back in the fairway, at that point Goldfinger had lost the hole, and neither player needed to play anymore stroke on that hole.
Under both circumstances, Bond was OK to pick-up his ball.  No need to hole out once the hole is lost by stokes; or won due to opponent's Lost of Hole penalty when he hit the "wrong" ball.

But didn't Bond forfeit the hole before the wrong-ball penalty was discovered? 
This seems somewhat applicable, although I'm not sure that I follow it completely.  Assuming that the "four-ball" part doesn't matter and it is just the example used because it is the most common for players to play the wrong ball. 

In Four-Ball match play, if no player completes a hole, the side whose player is last to pick up or be disqualified from the hole wins the hole.
For example, side A-B are playing against side C-D in a Four-Ball match. On a given hole, by mistake Player A plays Player C’s ball and then Player C plays Player A’s ball and each hole out with that ball. Player B and Player D both play into penalty areas and pick up. During play of the next hole, Player A and Player C determine that both of them played a wrong ball on the prior hole.
The ruling is that Player A and Player C are disqualified for the prior hole. Therefore, if Player B picked up before Player D, side C-D won the hole and if Player D picked up before Player B, side A-B won the hole. If it cannot be determined which player picked up first, the Committee should rule that the hole was tied.

But was this the rule in 1964? 

I am not sure of the 1964 rules, but doubt they are substantially different for this situation

There were only two people playing, so the rules of four ball match play do not apply.
Goldfinger started the hole with the Slazenger 7, which was handed to him by 007 between holes. He finished with the same ball, therefore he did not play a wrong ball.
 Bond interfered during the 17th hole by deliberately standing on/over Goldfinger's ball, he should have at least lost the hole based on his activity.  Bond knew that Goldfinger started the hole with the 7, and therefore had knowledge that a wrong ball penalty was not enforceable. He lost the hole by strokes. 
After the match, if Goldfinger ever, at any time, found out about the true facts and told the Committee, Bond would be retroactively DQed.
But this doesn't make Goldfinger a bad movie by disregarding play by strict rule.

[V. Kmetz]

How about the individual "marking" of the ball...isn;t it the player's responsibility to identify the ball beyond brand and number? And won't ambiguity be resolved against the player?


Bond might not have been standing on Goldfinger's "Slazenger 1... just thought he was... I mean they found one Slazenger in that bramble, plus the one Oddjob pant-legged... stands to reason there's some Slazengers in that frog hair.

[Peter Pallotta]

I just realized, and maybe this means something and maybe it doesn't:

We've gone 2 pages and 35 posts on "Goldfinger" and no one has yet mentioned the wonderful Honor Blackman (who just recently passed away), and her pivotal role in that film as Ms. Galore. 

She was, in my opinion, the most striking of all Bond-film heroines. 

[Kalen Braley]

Double P,

Interesting observation that you brought up the Bond girl for this movie, whose full character name makes most porn names seem tame. Can't say I'm a big fan of the Bond franchise in part for stuff like this, but to each thier own!   

[Niall C]

I read recently that Connery had not previously played golf. He went for lessons in an old squash court in Knightsbridge in order to look the part.


Tony -

Sean Connnery was taught by Leslie King, possibly the first golf pro in Britain to teach indoors:

https://golfweek.com/2012/05/17/tait-kings-impact-still-felt-british-golf-school/

DT

David

Apologies for being a bit of a pedant, but Willie Fernie did a tour of the country in 1895 giving lessons indoors. A year or so later the idea caught on in the US.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

I just realized, and maybe this means something and maybe it doesn't:

We've gone 2 pages and 35 posts on "Goldfinger" and no one has yet mentioned the wonderful Honor Blackman (who just recently passed away), and her pivotal role in that film as Ms. Galore. 

She was, in my opinion, the most striking of all Bond-film heroines.

Well I'd be equally happy with Barbara Bach! However I posted this on another forum and it was well received.


RIP Honor Blackman


In the late 50's my late father in law managed The West Ham Stadium, which hosted the largest crowd ever at a British sporting event. 122000 (I recall) to see an England vs Sweden Speedway match. He was also starter for the Greyhound Racing and one season opened with a visit from the Rank Starlets including Miss Honor Blackman. Even though Tom had happily married a girl he became engaged to in 1939, whom he next saw and married in 1946, every time MHB was on the TV he'd shake his head, take a deep breath and tell us about the day she came to the Stadium. Clearly she made an IMPRESSION.

FF 45 years and his eldest son is sitting opposite MHB at a 'stagey' lunch and eventually he tells her the above story. She laughs and asks for his business card. Within the week a beautifully framed inscribed photo dating from her Rank days arrives. From memory, she wrote it was one of the happiest days of her life and she'd never forgotten how attractive Tom looked in his boots and bowler. When it was given to Tom on his next Birthday it was the only time I ever saw him speechless.

A class act MHB.

[Adam Lawrence]

Diana Rigg for me. Yorkshirewoman.

[David_Tepper]

Apologies for being a bit of a pedant, but Willie Fernie did a tour of the country in 1895 giving lessons indoors. A year or so later the idea caught on in the US.

Niall -

I have played once or twice with a very good senior player in the Highlands (named Bert Richardson, I think) who told me he learned to play golf (teaching himself from a Sam Snead book!) as a young man hitting balls in a garage in Glasgow. It can be done.

DT