Flynn’s top 6 in Philly might be the best in an area by one designer.

[mike_malone]

 I think that in some ways the Philly Flynn 6 suffer from comparisons between them. If one could stand apart it would be top 25/30 and then the others would be pulled up.


  I played WFW and Fenway and think each of the Flynns are more fun and challenging. WFW may be more punishing but not as challenging or fun. Fenway is a nice members course and more modest than the FP6.

[Tim Martin]

WFW, BPB & QR are too hard for most on a daily basis. I don’t think that applies to the Flynn courses. Although a term that gets used often I think the Flynn courses are more playable as a collection.

[Sean_A]

Once you get past the likes of Sunny New, Swinley, St Georges Hill and Sunny Old (halfish Colt?), the quality of the London area courses drops a bit....especially since Wentworth West is now a very much diluted Colt.  I spose you are looking at Wentworth East, Camberley, Blackmoor, Tandridge, Royal Wimbledon and maybe a few others as candidates to fill out sheet.  I spose much depends on how highly one thinks of the top echelon courses.  Colts's top courses around London are legitimate top 100 world contenders.

Happy Hockey

[Eric LeFante]

Nearly all of the Flynn courses have five par-3 holes, and there are only a couple out of 29 or 30 that seem like repeats.  Either of the two front-nine par-3 holes at Winged Foot West would be a castoff at Rolling Green or Manufacturers or Lancaster.

This is quite the statement. I was under the impression that many viewed the 8 par 3s at Winged Foot as the best 8 on one piece of property anywhere (including Ran in his original Winged Foot profile)

[mike_malone]

 I heard a story about number 3 at WFW that Billy Casper laid up each day of the US Open rather than take on the well bunkered green. I see that as an indictment of the architecture of the hole.


The 14th at Rolling Green is a par three that allows a hook, a fade, a straight shot or even a layup. I don’t think WFW has a par three near it. Number 10 at WFW was one I liked. I’m not sure if I like it more than 10 at RG.


3 at Lehigh,8 at Lancaster, 15 Philly 11 at Manny’s are other threes that would challenge any at WFW.

[PCCraig]

Not 6, but William Watson is responsible for Interlachen, Minikahda, and WBYC all in the Twin Cities. A pretty good trifecta for a smaller market.

[David_Elvins]

Carnoustie
Muirfield
St Andrews Old
North Berwick
St Andrews New
Montrose

[Joe Bausch]

For those interested in the six courses Mayday mentioned:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/HuntingdonValley/index.html


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/LancasterCC/index.html


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/LehighCC/index.html


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Manufacturers/index.html


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/PhilaCC/index.html


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RollingGreen/index.html

[Steve Lapper]

I heard a story about number 3 at WFW that Billy Casper laid up each day of the US Open rather than take on the well bunkered green. I see that as an indictment of the architecture of the hole.


The 14th at Rolling Green is a par three that allows a hook, a fade, a straight shot or even a layup. I don’t think WFW has a par three near it. Number 10 at WFW was one I liked. I’m not sure if I like it more than 10 at RG.

Mayday,


 I would beg to differ. Casper laid up, because #3 at WFW was round-killer very early on the card.


  At 192-243yds, "Pinnacle's" extensive bunkering and sloped green contours left very little room for any margin of error. Like anything at Rolling Green, it most certainly allows for any style of play, but slightly favors a fade. Casper exercised shrewd judgement in laying up, especially in light of the severity of US Open style grooming.


  I take a little issue with Tom's statement either of the 2 front-nine par-3 holes "would be a castoff at Rolling Green, Manufacturers, or Lancaster." No doubt all three of those courses have wonderful sets of one-shotters, but I hardy think the terror of #3, or the demand on short precision on #7 would be castoffs anywhere, save for a Somerset Hills, Cypress Point, or a RMGC.


  Lastly, although there is some question of derivative attribution, I'd offer that the examples of McKenzie-related architecture found on Melbourne's Sandbelt handily eclipse Philly's sextet....similar to the results of the last two Eagles games!

[V_Halyard]

Tim


It appears you confirm the sanctity of the Golfweek rankings...If true, Flynn/Philly is not even close to NYC/Tilly.  I would be willing to listen to Mike Malone/Tom Doak argument as I find the Tilly courses over-rated relative to other classic course I have played but


What is wrong with the Golfweek list?  Which courses in the top 100 Golfweek list should be replaced by the Phily courses?


It has to be some or the original argument is a little hard to justify.

Ratings can be a foggy numbers conundrum. In some cases, the clubs really don’t care and are don’t actively seek, nor accept raters visits. 

[MCirba]

Flynn also designed the 11th at Shinnecock which may be the penultimate short par three on the planet.

[mike_malone]

I heard a story about number 3 at WFW that Billy Casper laid up each day of the US Open rather than take on the well bunkered green. I see that as an indictment of the architecture of the hole.


The 14th at Rolling Green is a par three that allows a hook, a fade, a straight shot or even a layup. I don’t think WFW has a par three near it. Number 10 at WFW was one I liked. I’m not sure if I like it more than 10 at RG.

Mayday,


 I would beg to differ. Casper laid up, because #3 at WFW was round-killer very early on the card.


  At 192-243yds, "Pinnacle's" extensive bunkering and sloped green contours left very little room for any margin of error. Like anything at Rolling Green, it most certainly allows for any style of play, but slightly favors a fade. Casper exercised shrewd judgement in laying up, especially in light of the severity of US Open style grooming.


  I take a little issue with Tom's statement either of the 2 front-nine par-3 holes "would be a castoff at Rolling Green, Manufacturers, or Lancaster." No doubt all three of those courses have wonderful sets of one-shotters, but I hardy think the terror of #3, or the demand on short precision on #7 would be castoffs anywhere, save for a Somerset Hills, Cypress Point, or a RMGC.


  Lastly, although there is some question of derivative attribution, I'd offer that the examples of McKenzie-related architecture found on Melbourne's Sandbelt handily eclipse Philly's sextet....similar to the results of the last two Eagles games!

Steve,


I just want you to remember the Eagles win in the Super Bowl and the bet you made.

[Ira Fishman]

I do not have a dog in this fight given that I live in golf poor DC. But it is raining here so I whiled away some time by checking the Confidential Guide.


The Philadelphia 6 average 6.72.
WFW, WFE, Quaker Ridge, Fenway, Ridgewood, and BPB average 7.3.
Essex, Wannamoisett, Whitinsville, Salem, Winchester, and Charles River average 6.94.


Tillinghast would be even higher if one substitutes Somerset for Fenway or WFE.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

Once you get past the likes of Sunny New, Swinley, St Georges Hill and Sunny Old (halfish Colt?), the quality of the London area courses drops a bit....especially since Wentworth West is now a very much diluted Colt.  I spose you are looking at Wentworth East, Camberley, Blackmoor, Tandridge, Royal Wimbledon and maybe a few others as candidates to fill out sheet.  I spose much depends on how highly one thinks of the top echelon courses.  Colts's top courses around London are legitimate top 100 world contenders.

Happy Hockey

Yes, I forgot for a minute how many of the great London courses are NOT Colt's.  Even so, Wentworth and Camberley Heath as your fifth and sixth best courses within twenty miles of each other is pretty impressive.

[mike_malone]

 One thing that a friend of mine told me is that this topic would show that only the titans of golf architecture are noted as alternatives to Flynn.
 I have proved my point that he is among the greatest of all time.

[Ira Fishman]

One thing that a friend of mine told me is that this topic would show that only the titans of golf architecture are noted as alternatives to Flynn.
 I have proved my point that he is among the greatest of all time.

I don’t think that fact was ever in doubt. Add Shinnecock, Cascades, Cherry Hills, Atlantic City, Indian Creek, Pepper Pike, Kittansett, and the Country Club to his Philadelphia work, you have a rich and impressive body of work.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

I do not have a dog in this fight given that I live in golf poor DC. But it is raining here so I whiled away some time by checking the Confidential Guide.


The Philadelphia 6 average 6.72.
WFW, WFE, Quaker Ridge, Fenway, Ridgewood, and BPB average 7.3.
Essex, Wannamoisett, Whitinsville, Salem, Winchester, and Charles River average 6.94.


Tillinghast would be even higher if one substitutes Somerset for Fenway or WFE.


Ira

Ira-I have no dog in the fight either but think that Wannamoisett is outside the original parameters set by Mayday for Boston. There are enough Ross courses in Rhode Island alone for a pretty good list.


Wannamoisett CC
Metacomet GC
Rhode Island CC
Sakonnet GC
Warwick CC
Misquamicut Club

[MCirba]

Tim,


It's a little known fact that most of Metacomet is Willie Park, Jr.


Misquamicut is a potpourri with probably as much Raynor and Bendelow as Ross and even a little Park Jr. thrown in the mix.

[Tom_Doak]

One thing that a friend of mine told me is that this topic would show that only the titans of golf architecture are noted as alternatives to Flynn.
 I have proved my point that he is among the greatest of all time.

That doesn't necessarily follow.


Flynn built most of his courses in a fairly small region, like many but not all of the architects of his day.  (MacKenzie, Simpson, and Alison are just a few of those who had to work much further afield instead of in a concentrated area.)  Likewise, due to the way modern courses are marketed, few of the best modern designers do a lot of work in the same region.

[JESII]

Fascinating to me that this is a conversation...


I'll admit to quite a heavy Flynn/Philadelphia bias but this possibility seemed a great stretch...until Tom brought up the distinction of the terrain.


One thing I'll say, the least desirable two courses for me to se next would be Baltusrol Lower and Bethpage Black.


I also suspect Somerset Hills would need to be on the list for Tilly/NY.

[JESII]

I suspect Mayday is simply commenting on the view that Flynn is underrated in the pantheon of your profession...not the regional concentration of work.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,


It's a little known fact that most of Metacomet is Willie Park, Jr.


Misquamicut is a potpourri with probably as much Raynor and Bendelow as Ross and even a little Park Jr. thrown in the mix.

Mike-I think that Bret Lawrence told me Park Jr. was involved at Metacomet. I agree that credit could be shared on Misquamicut and I am fascinated with the idea that despite his penchant for such holes Ross did not design the par three 8th “Volcano”. Both courses have Ross listed as the architect of record on their scorecards and websites with Metacomet going into quite a bit of detail about Ross. I can offer up the trio of Triggs Memorial, Winnepaug and Agawam Hunt Club all in Rhode Island but not in the same league as the two in question.

[MCirba]

Understood Tim, thanks.


I don't think Park's role at Metacomet was very well understood until recently but most of the routing was there prior to Ross.  I think it would be best described that Ross did refinements.


At Misquamicut there were a lot of cooks in the kitchen over the years and I think Ross definitely deserves credit for pulling all those strings together into a cohesive routing but a lot of the individual holes and greens belong to other prior architects.


Donald Ross on a scorecard definitely has more cache and member attraction then does Willie Park in the United States.

[Kyle Harris]

I heard a story about number 3 at WFW that Billy Casper laid up each day of the US Open rather than take on the well bunkered green. I see that as an indictment of the architecture of the hole.


The 14th at Rolling Green is a par three that allows a hook, a fade, a straight shot or even a layup. I don’t think WFW has a par three near it. Number 10 at WFW was one I liked. I’m not sure if I like it more than 10 at RG.

Mayday,


 I would beg to differ. Casper laid up, because #3 at WFW was round-killer very early on the card.


  At 192-243yds, "Pinnacle's" extensive bunkering and sloped green contours left very little room for any margin of error. Like anything at Rolling Green, it most certainly allows for any style of play, but slightly favors a fade. Casper exercised shrewd judgement in laying up, especially in light of the severity of US Open style grooming.


  I take a little issue with Tom's statement either of the 2 front-nine par-3 holes "would be a castoff at Rolling Green, Manufacturers, or Lancaster." No doubt all three of those courses have wonderful sets of one-shotters, but I hardy think the terror of #3, or the demand on short precision on #7 would be castoffs anywhere, save for a Somerset Hills, Cypress Point, or a RMGC.


  Lastly, although there is some question of derivative attribution, I'd offer that the examples of McKenzie-related architecture found on Melbourne's Sandbelt handily eclipse Philly's sextet....similar to the results of the last two Eagles games!

Steve,


I just want you to remember the Eagles win in the Super Bowl and the bet you made.

How many bets did he make!? 

[Kyle Harris]

Flynn also designed the 11th at Shinnecock which may be the penultimate short par three on the planet.

Does that make the 7th there the antepenultimate?