Great land for a course

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Where in America do you think the better land for a golf course is located? then if any feel able to discuss where in the world they know of where the sand based soil is? There is a series of sand dunes on the coast of Chile that are unbelievable.

[SPDB]

better than what?

[noonan]

There maybe good soil in Chile......there will not be any sports bar close for after the round buffalo wings.

JK

[A_Clay_Man]

JB- Have you missed Ne.? Get there a.s.a.p. if you have.

The wind, the sand, the gentle rolls, ok the tornados and harsh winters suck, but there's at least a few days of great golf to be had.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Adam, that is what this is about. Where is the sand based soils like the Pinehurst area and Sandhills?

[RJ_Daley]

John, get out your map and locate US-83, then take that portion from somewhere in mid Kansas north to South Dakota around I-90.  Figure the Sand Hills (is ground zero in a radius of 100 miles from around just north of norht Platte Nebraska) but there are varying fingers of that terrain and sandy soil for about 100 miles east and west of US-83.

http://csd.unl.edu/csd/illustrations/ra5a/introduction.html

The above will describe it generally, and the link at the bottom of that page will get you to an index of all the pertinent info.

But, there are lots of sandy barrens and dunes still left in this country.  The problem is the best are usually protected dunes land near sea shore or great lakes shore areas and no golf course construction would be allowed.  We have such an area very near Green Bay north of Two Rivers.  Also, there is the great Sleeping Bear area just across from us in Michigan.  The tip of Cape Cod is fabulous, and so is the outer banks...

But, everything special in our lovely natural environment doesn't need to be a golf course either...  

[A_Clay_Man]

JB-From what I gather it is more than just the sand base. The make up of the sand is also regionally specific. Here, we have nothin but sand. Rocks, and clay are also present and in enough abundance that it does make a super's job much much harder.

I'm tellling you these guys are gods to be able to grow grass on this stuff. Black Mesa & Devil's Thumb are  perfect examples. The grass at both is still a little spotty and a few have mentioned how they've had bad lies in the small bare patches. One of our group at BM even took a winter rules roll and I was shocked. You see, I saw all the spots and was even in my fair share of them. That is rub baby, pure and simple. And how often does the golfer knuckle under just that much more when faced with such adversity and hit a career shot? (alot) But even with the spottiness at BM the ability to grow what's there, shows real ability. As does Josh show to grow and maintain the fescue at Wild Horse. But if I were to choose the best composition that I've seen, it is in Ne.

[RJ_Daley]

I have walked that site in NE that I like so much, all 800 acres, going over it with a fine tooth comb.  I swear, I never found ONE rock or stone!  The sand is totally perfect in consistency too. And, the land is pretty much typical of the entire region.  

[Lou_Duran]

Dick-

And how many people did you find in the area?  Five?  Thank God the rancher was still around and got you unstuck, otherwise you might be adding to the topsoil right now.

A better question might be where is there great land for a golf course with sufficient population to make it viable.

There is also a difference with land that has great topographical features and land with good soils.  Matt Ward remarked on what a great piece of land Dallas National was built on.  The fact of the matter is that while it has a lot of elevation changes, it was not an easy course to build.   And the soils were so poor (and rocky) that some of the subsoil and the topsoil had to be imported (capped with 6" of sand in the primary playing areas).

[Todd_Joseph]

One area that I could see really taking off is the area surrounding World Woods north of Tampa.    The area has much more of a Pinehurst feel that a Florida feel, with rolling hills and a sandy soil.  Additionally, thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of pine trees were planted in the area several decades ago.   A new turnpike was build linking Tampa to the area and decreasing the drive from 90 minutes to about 45 minutes.    It's inevitable that in the next ten years the area will really take off, and hopefully a few great courses as well.

[texsport]

Just as the British Isles owes the sandy character of it's soils to glaciers, so does the upper mid west of the U.S. Since glaciation extended as far south as Kansas, the states of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, S. Dakota, N.Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan are all good candidates. (There's an excellent book on the geology of British Isles courses. I can't remember the author right now)

One trick is finding the locals where glacier edges existed, called terminal moranes. At these sites, glaciers tended to melt and drop larger deposits of sand and gravel. Also typical of these areas are formations called eskers-elongated sand hills- which frequently are found grouped together, forming series of parallel valleys-ideal for golf course routing.

There are sites in N. Minnesota with the most spectacular sand-based topography you'll ever see. I've routed theoretical courses over one of these sites many times over the years but the demographics of these areas limit the types of golf facilities that are  possible. Upscale courses in sparcely populated areas can only survive as resorts or private clubs. the courses can only stay open for 6 months a year.(But when it's 100* in Texas, it's 75* in the north woods.)

How 'bout those TIGERS?

Texsport

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Steve It is a great day to be an LSU TIGER!!!

[Norbert P]

(There's an excellent book on the geology of British Isles courses. I can't remember the author right now)

  That would be Robert Price.  He was a Featured Interviewee here ast GCA. His book was just updated last year to include some newer courses and now has better graphics.  Great book.

  Dave Wilbur (dirt demigod) said that the finest soil he's ever seen is in northeastern Colorado at one of Tom Doak's latest commissions.  BTW...Does that place have a name yet?

  The Oregon Coast has some wonderful lands but each will be highly scrutinized for proper uses. As they should be.

  Barnbougle !!!
 
  Dick, that's a terrific summation of Sand Hills at the link you presented.  20,000 square miles of sand.  That's the mother lode.  
   

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, that particular land has enough population (22000) close enough to the potential golf course.  It is just the other 4 dog track courses in the town, and a general golfing population that don'e actually know how bad they got it that makes it less attractive.  I still say, if we would have kept feeding those abandon tires they had all over there to stabilize the blow outs under my spinning wheels of the 4 wheel drive, we would have eventually got out.  Ask Tommy what knack I have for getting stuck in sand.  You are not the first one I have gotten mired down with.  But, then again I was more than lucky I had you along on that particular trip, as I wasn't strong enough to turn the lug nuts in pitch dark whilst we had to change my flat after running over barb wire driving up to Wild Horse after closing, just to see what we couldn't see at night.  Just think if that would have happened at the Prairie Sands site.  Now, that IS REMOTE!    

:Note to other GCAer's, driving with Daley in the boonies is never boring...

[Tony_Chapman]

Speaking of boonies. I have a friend whose parents own an 800 acre ranch near Brewster, NE. I talked to him this weekend and she wants to turn it into a hunting, fishing, golf resort place. Supposedly the land is unbelievable, even though I have yet to see it. Brewster is about 80 miles east of Mullen.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

We seem to keep looking at places with short seasons lol

[Jonathan Davison]

I recently read of a links land plot for sale, with a country house and towering dunes, in England. Thats all I am saying its a secret. Great golf terrain!