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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« on: October 22, 2019, 01:47:53 PM »
In watching the TED talks on how some of the psychedelic drugs are being used today in micro doses etc to help with various diseases it got me to wondering.  Wondering because of the creative aspects of the mind that such drugs enhance.  So I just wondered if any of the historians here who can channel Donald and Alister etc know if they ever used things like mushrooms(
psilocybin)
or early Coca Cola products or maybe even a little weed etc when routing or designing.  My bet is they did....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2019, 04:54:12 PM »
Let me take you down,
Cuz I'm going to
Mike Young's The Fields,
Nothing is real
And nothing to get hung about...
Mike Young's The Fields forever.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2019, 05:11:17 PM »
Mike,

Given they were both legal and generally not understood in how much they impacted you, i'm guessing this is a safe bet...and not just limited to Golf Course builders. Given today's social norms and workplace laws hard to imagine what a day at the office was back then.

P.S. But if you just looking for permission, your secret is safe with me!  ;D

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2019, 05:29:22 PM »
"I'm only 54, I'm just getting started. In four years, I'll have no self-imposed limitations. I intend to meet more neat clients, to enjoy cigars and whiskey with them, and to be part of golf's Golden Age."     

Peter Pallotta

Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2019, 05:39:53 PM »
It never happened, Mike :)
You know the Huxley line (post LSD experiments): "if the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is: infinite".
I can't think of one golden age great (or course, save maybe The Old) that was so free, so open to the reality beyond itself.
Instead, it was an alcohol culture: very defined and rule bound and proscribed, even when (especially when) it tried to 'break' those rules and proscriptions -- as if they had any import/meaning in the first place.
So, no, I don't think it happened back then.
Now *you* on the other hand, right now.... :)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2019, 06:24:40 PM »
I'm thinking it is possible it did come into play with some.   
Come on Silicon Valley would not be what it is today without micro doses of LSD and mushrooms. That stuff helped write so much of the early computer code.  I'm thinking medicine will show LSD to not be the "bad guy" it is perceived to be.  The dementia studies are interesting. 



"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2019, 08:30:04 PM »
Absinthe..
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2019, 09:38:03 PM »
Mike:


Making such speculation in the complete absence of evidence seems unfitting for a web site where so much real history work has been done.


Certainly, there are plenty of designers past and present who liked to drink or get high; in my experience no more and no less than the general populace.  But honestly, do you know of any golf designers who did any of their most creative work while under the influence? I do not, and that's why I think your speculations have little merit.


As to whether Macdonald and MacKenzie used drugs other than alcohol in their private lives, I'm not sure anyone knows, or why they should care.


archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2019, 09:38:46 PM »
 ;) ;) ;)


Great subject Mike!


Fresh off watching JOKER last night this one hits home. Certainly there are lots of reasons to believe relaxation techniques were a little looser in the golden age, so it wouldn't me at all if there were some stimulants used by the golf artists of the day. Certainly there was no shortage of drug usage in the most famous of painters, poets and the like!


I'm thinking all the  Nordic symbolism Desmond Muirhead employed at Stone Harbor Golf Club here in beautiful Cape May County comes right to mind. To say that he was a student of Timothy Leary would not be a stretch for me. The Emperor and I had a few wonderful conversations regarding Desmond, who certainly had some genius in his work. While the steady cacophony of "Clashing Rocks" et al at Stone Harbor is hard to appreciate in the whole, there is some really cool stuff amongst the rubble.


I'm sitting here channeling some of the great ones and hoping for some more inspiration.


 Mike Cirba, you are a five tool player for sure!  8)  Can see you playing the guitar and singing while hitting a crisp iron shot, and I'm doing this all drug free. Think of the possibilities....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 10:04:13 PM by archie_struthers »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2019, 09:49:03 PM »
Mike:


Making such speculation in the complete absence of evidence seems unfitting for a web site where so much real history work has been done.


Certainly, there are plenty of designers past and present who liked to drink or get high; in my experience no more and no less than the general populace.  But honestly, do you know of any golf designers who did any of their most creative work while under the influence? I do not, and that's why I think your speculations have little merit.


As to whether Macdonald and MacKenzie used drugs other than alcohol in their private lives, I'm not sure anyone knows, or why they should care.


While I agree there is no evidence, I am not judging them.  I was actually just trying to change the same old topic stuff that the basement dudes had been posting and thought I would stir it. 
As I read more and more regarding psychedelics I am confident if harnessed and used properly they open parts of the brain we have barely touched.  It's not really reaching that far out when you think of how much art, music etc was influenced in such a manner... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2019, 11:34:14 PM »
I'm thinking it is possible it did come into play with some.   
Come on Silicon Valley would not be what it is today without micro doses of LSD and mushrooms. That stuff helped write so much of the early computer code.  I'm thinking medicine will show LSD to not be the "bad guy" it is perceived to be.  The dementia studies are interesting.
It would be hard for any working professional to comment thoughtfully on this subject.

Having grown up in Silicon Valley, my experience is that the early scientific community was a square group overall.  A lot of smoking, not much drinking, and little to no drug use.  Most of the engineers and technical people moved to the Bay Area from other parts of the country.  Much of the scientific research and development was funded by government grants.  On the other hand, experiments with LSD were conducted at the local Veterans Hospital, and there was a significant group of people who experimented, or indulged regularly, in psychedelic drugs, starting in the early to mid-sixties.

Here is an excellent contemporary article:

https://www.ft.com/content/0a5a4404-7c8e-11e7-ab01-a13271d1ee9c

It seems clear that society administers all mood-altering drugs in excessive doses, while smaller amounts of virtually all drugs will have greater benefit while minimizing side effects and reducing dependency.  Part of the human learning curve. 


When I visit my hometown, it is barely recognizable to me.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:38:57 PM by John Kirk »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2019, 06:28:17 AM »



I'm sitting here channeling some of the great ones and hoping for some more inspiration.


 




Go old school Archie--laudanum.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2019, 08:24:09 AM »
 ;D




Laudanum, wow! Already triggered a memory burst just thinking of it.


Pine Valley had a great group of "locals" when I worked there. These members either lived on the grounds or close by and would play together a lot. They were typically influential in club politics and had a great affinity for the "Valley". Whether it was Warner Shelley, Ernie Ransome, Joe Holman or John Ott it was always a fun loop when you were in their presence. Lots of club history could be learned just listening in to the conversations, as a good caddie is allowed entry into the group think!


Doc Dyson, Laudie by name was another super local. He owned the house directly right of the second fairway where an occasional wayward drive would end. He and John Ott, who owned the house left of nine fairway were great pranksters. You would never know it at first blush but these two were so funny!


"Doc" Dyson was one of the early pioneers in lithium carbonate therapy for schizophrenia, or so legend has it. One of our caddies "Broadway Joe" was a brilliant guy but subject to mood swings that seemed to go on for months at a time. He was a superb caddie with a wry humor and technically very proficient at his craft. I enjoyed working with him despite his occasional jags.


One day Mr Ott decided to have some fun and brought me in as an accomplice. Broadway and I were looping for the "locals" that morning and Doc Dyson was in on the fun. We teed off and on the second hole either Joe Holman or Cy Eastlack hit it way  right close to the "Docs" home. I went over and pretended to have lost the ball and started motioning for Joe to help. He gave me a come on Archie look and sauntered across the fairway to join the search.  As he arrived on the scene John Ott yelled "grab him Archie ". I put Broadway in a hammerlock and when Laudie "DOC" Dyson came out of his house in full scrubs with a huge needle Joe screamed in terror.  ;D  Of course I had learned of Docs vitae from Broadway.


He finally broke loose from me and ran away! He got about fifty yards away and then tuned to see all of us laughing hysterically, at which point he raised his arms and said "really". Of course for the next month he tortured me for my traitorous behavior, but I know deep down he appreciated that he was given this special treatment. He mattered!






p.s. 

realize that mental illness is a terrible affliction, have great empathy for all who suffer and their families....look at this story as what it is .. a  funny golf story about a good friend who I loved dearly and taught me a lot...we had great fun looping together! 8)




















« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 11:13:24 AM by archie_struthers »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2019, 10:09:47 AM »
Not an ODG/designer but 'Golf in the Kingdom', with Shivas and Co, has always seemed along such lines.
atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2019, 11:12:22 AM »
Mike,

This is a great topic indeed, but you're just a few months early.  This stuff plays better in late February when all the northern guys are sick of the other white stuff and stir crazy to get out.

P.S. As one who also raised near Silicon Valley, and worked in tech over the years, I've known some extremely smart guys who i absolutely know used illicit substances to help with a few of their brilliant break-thru's.  While Tom has a good point about this being purely speculative, its certainly very plausible for the ODGs, especially considering it wasn't illegal at the time.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2019, 12:47:34 PM »

As long as we are wondering about ODG vices, should
we discuss whether they had groupies?  Or sexual orientation, etc.?
Or really, just any other noted personality quirks that stood out?  That might be interesting, as we know think of them as having more "character" than our current crop of gca (I think?)  And to stay on topic, whether any of those quirks affected their designs in any way?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2019, 10:49:12 PM »
I was a college student in 60's.  Tim Leary was my faculty adviser until he dropped out.  My take on this speculation is highly skeptical.  Yes, they were weird times and much strange shit did happen, but I wouldn't think too much of lasting merit.  Maybe some examples of Freud thinking cocaine was a wonder drug and the fictional Sherlock Holmes fondness for opium indicate ODG's experimenting with such recreations, but my personal memories from my era wouldn't be very supportive of this theory.  Not much got done during these experiments.     

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2019, 06:42:25 AM »
I was a college student in 60's.  Tim Leary was my faculty adviser until he dropped out. 


Just when you are ready to bail on GCA.com for The Fried Egg, this pops up!! Nice post :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2019, 07:50:46 AM »
 :o


I’m struggling to post a picture of George Arthur Crump sitting in the woods in Clementon,NJ (someone surely will help). My only thought would be peace pipe or peyote?


Help Joe B ?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 09:17:25 AM by archie_struthers »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2019, 08:12:12 AM »
Is there much question that MacKenzie was totally zonked on acid when he designed ANGC?  ;)   

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2019, 10:08:30 AM »
Backwards!.


There's a story of a stupefied Chicago School patriarch getting locked in an electrical closet at one of the annual boozefests they call a convention.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 10:10:44 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2019, 12:02:19 PM »
:o


I’m struggling to post a picture of George Arthur Crump sitting in the woods in Clementon,NJ (someone surely will help). My only thought would be peace pipe or peyote?


Help Joe B ?




Name three architects in South Jersey that have one golf course design credits to their resume:

  • George Crump, Pine Valley GC
  • Archie Struthers, Twisted Dune GC
  • Bob Hendricks, Avalon GC

Bob and George are gone, but Archie survives!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2019, 12:11:33 PM »
 8) ;)


Mike is too nice and in that grouping I'm lagging way behind but how about that picture>>>>its off the hook !


Peyote or something else is the question?  How did he envision this place  otherwise?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2019, 12:22:44 PM »
Sounds like more peeps on GCA.com need to experiment a bit more and become enlightened as well.  Some of em ain't too shabby either...  ;D

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ODG's and mind altering drugs in design...
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2019, 02:18:45 PM »
:o


I’m struggling to post a picture of George Arthur Crump sitting in the woods in Clementon,NJ (someone surely will help). My only thought would be peace pipe or peyote?


Help Joe B ?




Name three architects in South Jersey that have one golf course design credits to their resume:

  • George Crump, Pine Valley GC
  • Archie Struthers, Twisted Dune GC
  • Bob Hendricks, Avalon GC
Bob and George are gone, but Archie survives!!


Mike Sweeney,


How could you possibly forget Crump's co-design involvement at Cobb's Creek??   :o   :)


Also, Bob Hendricks co-designed Montgomeryville GC in PA, which was later bulldozed to create Ron Prichard's Pinecrest GC.


Archie stands alone here.   ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/