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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« on: October 21, 2019, 02:04:06 PM »
I heard a whisper over the weekend that following comments made after this years Scottish Open that there are going to be some changes made on some of the holes at Renaissance and that Tom D will be back to do the work. I'd be interested to hear more. Tom ?


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2019, 02:49:21 PM »
Well if there is going to be a knee-jerk reaction to low scoring, at least they’re asking the original architect to oversee the change.


Professional golf is ruining golf.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2019, 04:47:09 PM »
Poak gets a Dass. There was a time we blamed these things on the architect.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2019, 04:56:29 PM »
They don't play a spongy mush course and those scores are probably a lot higher.  Not a very fair assessment.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2019, 05:36:26 PM »
I heard a whisper over the weekend that following comments made after this years Scottish Open that there are going to be some changes made on some of the holes at Renaissance and that Tom D will be back to do the work. I'd be interested to hear more. Tom ?



The work being done this winter is not very extensive.  They are going to build a couple of new tees, raise a tee from the old routing so they can use it to lengthen the 12th hole in the new routing, and revet a handful bunkers that were not previously revetted. [/size] Our client also pointed out that there were 3-4 back tees not used for the event that might have made some difference in the scoring, if they would just use them.
[/size]
[/size]I am comfortable with the maintenance crew at the club making those changes in house; they of course are the ones that did all the revetting in the first place.


There were some other things discussed.  The Tour would like to add a handful of more penal bunkers, but they couldn't say where, exactly, and it wouldn't be easy to do because of visibility / drainage / etc.  If they reach a longer-term arrangement with the club to host the event, which has been in discussion, we might try to sort out a couple of good places for that.  Honestly, though I don't think it will be productive because the players will not flirt with a bunker that creates a real penalty, they'll just lay up or play around them.


My takeaway was that the one thing which might make the course tougher is tightening up around the greens and adding more bunkering there.  The greens are fairly large and it seemed like the players could take the dangerous side out of play while still aiming onto the green and leaving themselves an easy two-putt.  But, conditions were soft and there was no wind -- the scoring would have been pretty low if they'd played on the other side of the wall, too.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2019, 05:42:08 PM »
Poak gets a Dass. There was a time we blamed these things on the architect.


Funny, I don't remember you posting here after watching the event with a list of the things I got wrong.


The bottom line is, they're great players, and modern equipment makes the game very easy for them.  If there's no wind and the course isn't hard as a rock or completely tricked up, the scoring is going to be low.  Nothing that was discussed as a potential change was going to change that very much.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2019, 06:05:12 PM »
Two vocations (or for most, two careers): golf architect and golf administrator. They often seem mutually exclusive.
The one says: that's not good design, and it won't work in the way you think it will. The other says: we don't know that, and we don't care. The appearances -- of a tougher course, and of a proactive administration -- is what's most important.
Two lenses: one rooted in an art-craft, the other in client services & stakeholder relations.
The architects who become the 'US Open doctor' types are the ones most willing to embrace and defer to the other's lens, ie to fit the art-craft into the client services.   
But no doubt I betray my biases in this regard.


David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2019, 06:16:08 PM »
Poak gets a Dass. There was a time we blamed these things on the architect.


Funny, I don't remember you posting here after watching the event with a list of the things I got wrong.


The bottom line is, they're great players, and modern equipment makes the game very easy for them.  If there's no wind and the course isn't hard as a rock or completely tricked up, the scoring is going to be low.  Nothing that was discussed as a potential change was going to change that very much.


If the conditions are the same as last year’s Scottish Open in St Andrews for The Open in 2021, then the Renaissance will look like a tough track. The problem is obvious.


Serious question, with the modern game are any Scottish Links courses actually capable of holding an Open in benign conditions and not being humiliated?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2019, 08:31:33 PM »
Serious question, with the modern game are any Scottish Links courses actually capable of holding an Open in benign conditions and not being humiliated?

The same question can be asked of any major host with very few exceptions.  The US Open courses are plagued with tricked up presentation.  The PGA doesn't matter.  Augusta has been in a lifelong battle to combat pros.  In the past many years, one of the few courses to stand up to the pros in its near daily state or without being a penal test of defensive golf is PInehurst #2.  I guess thats one reason it is one of the best courses on the planet.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2019, 01:04:06 PM »
Tom


Thanks for your comments and I agree, these guys are very good so what do people expect.


David


Being a pedant I'd suggest that as a course is an inanimate object it can't be humiliated (not counting of course the organic elements which don't have feelings anyway). Also, being a bit of a historical buff, if courses have their feelings hurt because people are shooting ever lower scores then they must be used to it by now because it's been happening for over a hundred years. As Tom said, these guys are very good so let them just get on with it and stop trying to make them play to some standard number.


Niall

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2019, 02:37:19 PM »
Bad golfers has always harmed the game more than the elite players. Who do you think is insisting that tournament scores are raised though penal architecture? Uh, no one in the tournament.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2019, 03:01:52 PM »
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 03:08:36 PM by Kalen Braley »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2019, 03:24:43 PM »
Forget tweaking the course, tweak the ball/equipment instead!
Atb

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2019, 07:25:09 AM »
Tom


Thanks for your comments and I agree, these guys are very good so what do people expect.


David


Being a pedant I'd suggest that as a course is an inanimate object it can't be humiliated (not counting of course the organic elements which don't have feelings anyway). Also, being a bit of a historical buff, if courses have their feelings hurt because people are shooting ever lower scores then they must be used to it by now because it's been happening for over a hundred years. As Tom said, these guys are very good so let them just get on with it and stop trying to make them play to some standard number.


Niall
A pedant? Surely not!!


Agree that the number may not be the main thing but if things keep going the way they are without some intervention the pro game will become even more desperately dull than it is so often today.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2019, 10:54:48 AM »
Also maybe don't put a temporary immovable obstruction right under a tree so that guys in a playoff keep getting free drops that take the tree out of play after hitting drives about five yards into the right rough. Though they probably don't need Tom for that.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2019, 06:51:04 AM »
David


Well, I have my moments ! Are you still playing at Archerfield ? I played the Dirleton for the first time last week. It was in very good nick for this time of year and I thought had some decent golf but didn't really hit the heights. Was I being too harsh ?


Niall

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2019, 06:07:36 PM »
David


Well, I have my moments ! Are you still playing at Archerfield ? I played the Dirleton for the first time last week. It was in very good nick for this time of year and I thought had some decent golf but didn't really hit the heights. Was I being too harsh ?


Niall


I am indeed still there but have played less this year than previously. My 11 year old son has got his junior membership at Gullane, and as I am on the waiting list there I can play on number 2 and 3 from 1st October to 31st March for a very reasonable cost so I am playing more golf there than before. My father is a member of the West at North Berwick too so I have a few options but, alas, not enough time to take advantage of them as much as I'd like!


Archerfield is in better condition that it has been for some time. The new green keeper has got the greens to a good place (finally). The fairways are running well but the bunkers are still the poorest in the area. I think member play between Fidra and Dirleton is probably split 70:30 which would support your thoughts. It is a perfectly pleasant track but hard to advise anyone to pass on an East Lothian classic to play here. Dirleton is probably the tougher track for anyone a little wayward which is compounded by the gorse getting out of control in some places.


Let me know if you fancy a knock at 2 or 3 over the winter months as my winter membership comes with some visitor passes I am keen to use!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tweaks to the Renaissance Club holes ?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2019, 09:20:01 AM »
David


I'd be glad to take you up on that as no.3 has always been a favourite of mind ever since I used to play it regularly in the Kiwi.


Niall

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